Does feminism have an anti-Semitism problem?

[Fantasyanswer]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/spotlight/does-feminism-have-an-antisemitism-problem/?fbclid=IwAR2Peotm8PwNdTpDdzgW1KXUOCD1YuQ6jiSY2LpBfNMlqcz9hQzq0rYmGgc

I've not had a change to listen to this yet, but thought this may be of interest to some.

I've put this here following on from the previous thread on Sex and Gender about the sexual abuse of Israeli women and girls by Hamas on October 7th.

@TempestTost

None of those are about being "bothered", or say anything about whether a person thinks Hamas should be running a state.

In practice, the left isn't objecting to Israel for a reason like, Jews should only return to the land when they are all religiously obedient.

And while we have seen some on the left supporting the terror attack against Israel, or making excuses for it, many of them may say they condemn Hamas and don't like them.

But they aren't going out on protests when it comes to Hamas.

So for the modern left, they seem a lot more bothered about Israel than Hamas style ideology.

@Bagpussdreams

Yet I am entirely unsupportive of this idea that tribes/religious groups are entitled to land on the basis of their genetic or cultural heritage. Imagine if we did that here?

I don't think it's always wrong.

For example, I think it's reasonable that Native American tribes get special land rights and autonomy to some degree.

Anyway, in the case of the Middle East, I think it's quite reasonable to create a Jewish state when Jews aren't in a safe position without having their own state.

It's better to be realistic, and separate people, than say, "you should all be living together peacefully", and just let them be massacred or oppressed in Muslim majority countries.

they seem a lot more bothered about Israel than Hamas style ideology.

Let’s face it, genderists and Islamists are above reproach and woe betide anyone who criticises.

Everyone else is fair game.

Also, I think this notion that only Jewish women should talk about this is immensely patronising and ignorant. In pretty much every intellectual tradition, Jewish participants punch well above their weight. Albert Einstein said “If I am proved correct [about the theory of relativity] the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong, the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew.”

Both Julie Bindel and Linda Bellos, two pretty outstanding ‘gender critical’ feminists are Jewish by birth. Andrea Dworkin, Shulamith Firestone, etc were also Jewish.

I think it's quite reasonable to create a Jewish state when Jews aren't in a safe position without having their own state.

What does that even mean?

You can have a majority Jewish secular democracy where all people within its bounds are equal and fair and free, but this doesn’t mean they, as an ethnic group, ‘need their own state’, to achieve it. This country, however it is conceived or perceived, or named, just needs support from Western democracies to achieve it. The Middle East is a opportunity-rich contested space where three continents converge, it is volatile and prone to war.

That's fair enough. I think many progressives are just locked into a hierarchical view of politics and society. It's the only lens they have and so someone has to be on top, and someone underneath.

In a way, I think the criticism of that as antisemitic can be poorly placed though, or maybe say, unlikely to work. Because what that tends to come down to is a kind of argument that Jewish people are actually more oppressed, or equally oppressed. So it accepts the basic hierarchical idea that the most oppressed people are in the right, it just quibbles about who that is.

That is an unwinnable argument in the end, the problem is the underlying logic, the hierarchy of oppression.

But reducing questions about the nature of Zionism to that level is not helpful either. It has a very similar effect to reducing questions about gi to transphobia. People who have real disagreements with that ideological perspective know the reasons they think that way, if you tell them it's due to some kind of bigotry, they just start to ignore accusations of bigotry.

@Bagpussdreams

What does that even mean?

I mean that international powers could have carved up the Middle East in different ways. They could have kept Jews as minorities. But Jews had long been persecuted by Muslims. (Obviously by European Christians also.)

In that situation, it protects them to give a Jewish majority territory.

I agree with you that there needs to be a safe place in the volatile Middle East for the persecuted minorities to live in peace and prosperity, and because Jewish people have a historical connection to the region, and a history of persecution, that (even if the events of the 20th Century has been wildly different) safe place is likely to end up majority Jewish, but I don’t think it should ever be framed as a particular ethnic group getting their ‘own’ land.

I think also the situation in the USA and Canada hasn’t worked out very well for the indigenous people either, by framing it as ‘land rights’. It’s ham-fisted.

Like you, I suck my teeth a bit about the idea of an ethno-nationalist state also being democratic. But of all the people in the world, surely the Jews deserve it. The safety of Jews everywhere depends on there always being a Jewish majority in the Knesset.

So for me Zionism means allowing vulnerable and oppressed people their own space. I'm also in favour of women-only spaces, even though some individual women are really powerful. Coincidence? You decide.

(The problem is of course the occupation, and the arguably self-defeating attempts since '67 by Israel to keep the land but not the people. Only Israel has the power to sort this out.)

Yes the ME is a hot spot. And also a cradle of multiple civilisations, meaning we're emotionally and culturally invested in it.

Anyway, I am going well off-topic, but suffice it to say that I totally support Israel, but not for ‘Zionist’ reasons, and I am appalled that western democracies are being manipulated into undermining this nation that follows international law, instead of whole-heartedly supporting it, in favour of a totalitarian terrorist state, which follows no laws and perpetrates the most evil and misogynist war-crimes by design.

The fact that people feel cowed about supporting Israel and feel they need to sit on the fence just shows how much people take the modern secular democracies we enjoy for granted.

Only Israel has the power to sort this out. I can't see how unless you mean capitulation to the demands of the Palestians for their own eradication.

The left wing has a well-documented problem with antisemitism

Considering that traditionally the left-wing took its political thoughts from people like Marx and Trotsky and nowadays from Chomsky, I can't see how that is possible.

However Zionists love to make out that you have to prove that you don't hate Jews by embracing the genocide of Palestinians.

Fortunately there are many, many Jews around the world protesting against the treatment of Palestinians

@TempestTost

In a way, I think the criticism of that as antisemitic can be poorly placed though, or maybe say, unlikely to work.

So we need to look at perhaps multiple reasons why people could have hostility towards Israel, and a lot of the time it may not be as simple as just prejudice towards an ethnic group.

However, you may perhaps still be able to say it's a form of antisemitism where people end up with double standards or obsessively focused on Israel, or making wild claims against a Jewish state.

Considering that traditionally the left-wing took its political thoughts from people like Marx and Trotsky and nowadays from Chomsky, I can't see how that is possible.

I can see how things are possible. Most people who consider themselves to be ‘on the left’ have never read anything by them, and most followers of anything don’t know about the origins of the things they participate in. They enjoy being part of a tribe. A bit like the NF skinheads who copied the styling of Jamaican rude boys with the turned up trousers, high lace up boots, braces and shirts. Most newcomers to the National Front would have had no idea where the style came from.

There’s a very solid Jewish left wing contingent in my local area, they are old school communists types who read Marx and so on, it’s very much within a Jewish intellectual tradition, in fact Kibbutzes in Israel are about as communist as you can get on paper, but the fixation with the plight of Palestinians, that seems to be so disproportionately front and centre for much of the vociferous left, is very thinly disguised antisemitism in my opinion. Why fixate on Palestinians when so many people are suffering around the world? What other reason is there?

Helen Joyce debunks claim that Helen Joyce used anti-Semetic conspiracy theory tropes.

🙄

the fixation with the plight of Palestinians, that seems to be so disproportionately front and centre for much of the vociferous left, is very thinly disguised antisemitism in my opinion. Why fixate on Palestinians when so many people are suffering around the world? What other reason is there?

The Israel-Gaza crisis is huge news at the moment. Anyone who follows world affairs will be aware of it and most people will be sympathetic to the Gazans trapped in a war zone. That isn't a "fixation".

I can't believe you are seriously writing off people's concern about a humanitarian crisis as a fixation driven by antisemitism.

?

What have you got against someone writing a rebuttal when they feel they’ve been wrongly accused?

Its concerning that there are many people who have been educated through social media and believe that everything is just a ‘story’ and everything is relative, and there is no such thing as truth or lies or right or wrong, and their only method of reasoning is to identify ‘tropes’ and similarities. Scratching their heads and acting like a cartoon caveman they think:

That sounds like that, so that must be that.
That reminds me of that, so that and that are the very same thing.
That person said/did that and this other person said/did that, so they are like the same person on the inside even though their bodies are different.

Ug ugh.

I have noticed this pattern long before this recent crisis.

Sorry I meant ‘fixation’ not pattern, I meant it more strongly than it came out.

There has long been discussion about whether Marx was an antisemite or not.

For example: https://philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

Considering that traditionally the left-wing took its political thoughts from people like Marx and Trotsky and nowadays from Chomsky, I can't see how that is possible.

You really don't see how that's possible? Far left political thought (although I use the term "thought" very loosely) is totally entrenched in the 'oppressor-oppressed' narrative there is no room for nuance or flexibility. So for those - including intersectional feminists - who have jumped on the CRT bandwagon for instance, they see Israel and Jews as oppressors, so there is effectively no room to accommodate Jews in this rigid theory. Which is a shame because it would be a very useful framework for analysing antisemitism.

Marx - there is a MASSIVE scholarship on Marx' own antisemitism, prevalent in both his private and published writing. How could you not have known about this if you're quoting Marx as a driver of left wing political thought? Trotsky - if you want to find out how antisemitism has absolutely festered amongst contemporary Trotskyist groups I really urge you to read this. Because it will show you exactly how it "is possible". Please, please do read it.

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir/

And yes, I know Marx was Jewish. Jews can be antisemites too, although often it's hard to ascertain whether it's a genuine loathing of Jews/self hating or just part of their grift. So the less I say about Chomsky the better - suffice to say I'm fed up of non-Jews throwing Chomsky (and Pappé and Mate) in our direction as if we've never heard of them before, and often the said poster only found out about them five minutes ago. Mainstream - including left wing - Jews have serious issues with their work and there's a reason they get ridiculed as cranks.

Fortunately there are many, many Jews around the world protesting against the treatment of Palestinians

Yes, I'm appalled at what's happening in Gaza. However I also count myself as a Zionist so I find this statement utterly fucking offensive:

However Zionists love to make out that you have to prove that you don't hate Jews by embracing the genocide of Palestinians.

that's not what it says.

Thanks for the interesting posts bringing more insight, nuance and depth to the discussion, they are very much appreciated.

(Those who seek only to throw insults, offend people, and try to create a less nuanced and more vitriolic argument - no, thank you.)

You don't see that it could be perceived as minimising the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to write "Why fixate on Palestinians when so many people are suffering around the world?"

I find it pretty objectionable.

I mean, factually what Helen Joyce said about funding is true of the named individuals. How can facts be antisemitic? She didn't say all Jews are funding twaw / sterilising autistic children. But those named who are essentially funding this want this to be seen as true? Hmm.

the fixation with the plight of Palestinians, that seems to be so disproportionately front and centre for much of the vociferous left, is very thinly disguised antisemitism in my opinion. Why fixate on Palestinians when so many people are suffering around the world? What other reason is there?

The most obvious answer is that it's reported far more in the press than other international issues such as the treatment of the Uighur Muslims or the hostility towards Muslims in India or the genocide against the Yazidi by ISIS. So people are much more aware of it.

The other is that, in some respects, Israel is seen as a Western-style democracy. It receives a lot of support from Western countries such as the US and Britain, including arms. So it feels like an area where the West could exert some influence.

That aside, it feels quite disturbing to me that anyone should say, effectively, "You should care less about the Palestinians. Caring about the Palestinians makes you antisemitic."