Does feminism have an anti-Semitism problem?

[Fantasyanswer]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/spotlight/does-feminism-have-an-antisemitism-problem/?fbclid=IwAR2Peotm8PwNdTpDdzgW1KXUOCD1YuQ6jiSY2LpBfNMlqcz9hQzq0rYmGgc

I've not had a change to listen to this yet, but thought this may be of interest to some.

I've put this here following on from the previous thread on Sex and Gender about the sexual abuse of Israeli women and girls by Hamas on October 7th.

As far as women's groups speaking out against atrocities:

I think we should be careful in expecting groups to speak out against ideologies that are not directly part of their remit.

Women's groups do, IMO, have a clear reason for speaking out about wartime atrocities against women, and that would normally include naming groups responsible if that was applicable.

However, I also think it would be totally legitimate for a women's group in the UK to refrain from addressing antisemitism as a separate thing in that kind of instance. Because any time a group with one area of interest begins to associate it tightly with other areas, they will lose a certain amount of focus, and also potentially alienate a lot of people who are committed to their main cause.

There are going to be huge grey areas there, and it's probably always going to be a judgement call, and whatever is done may seem unsatisfactory.

But the upshot for me is that while I'd expect women's groups talk about problems of women in wartime conditions, I would not at all think they were being derelict if they chose not to specifically address the origins of the conflict itself, or the justice of either side's case.

Answering this question is complicated, for the reasons many in this thread have more eloquently stated, including the need to define feminism (as there are many different schools) and to define antisemitism, so that we are all thinking of the same concepts when debating this.

So all I wanted to add is that the kind of feminism which constructs oppression pyramids and then places individuals in either the oppressed or the oppressor category in some permanent, unchanging, and not deeds-based or context-dependent sense WILL have great difficulties when it must judge difficult issues where an oppressed group oppresses, or badly wishes to oppress, other groups (say, when men from a very poor and outcaste group gang-rape young women or girls from a higher and wealthy social class).

Some years ago I saw this play out in social media (though not about feminism): At that time, the majority of Black voters in California did not support same sex marriage initiatives. Some activists had tremendous trouble coping with this (because on some level they expected alignment of interests and opinions to match the oppression hierarchies they perhaps used in their activist work? because they divided people into 'bad' and 'good' in some unchanging sense? not sure).

The 2015 New Year's eve mass harassment in Cologne posed a similar problem for intersectional feminists (who misunderstand intersectionalism, I think), so they stayed mostly quiet. Perhaps this is why some feminists find it difficult to BOTH condemn the horrendous rapes and butchering that took place on October 7 AND also the killing of innocents in Gaza?

Yes the Liberal left twaw and sex work is work feminists absolutely.
The sort of feminists who are centre right or properly radical left not at all, they are the ones raising this.

That's pretty crazy. Basically it's saying the important thing is saying the right things, whether or not they happen to be true.

It's rather like the logic of those who were unwilling to say anything about the grooming gangs.

“To frame, as some do, Israel’s society as some sort of middle-eastern utopia for liberated women, Jewish or Arab, straight or gay, is simply misleading and certainly not a ladder to moral high ground over Palestinian society”

I haven’t seen anybody claim that Israel is a utopia, far from it. However, If I had to choose a middle-eastern country to live in as a woman or lesbian/gay the choice would be easy.

I was stunned by UN Women's failure to even mention the attacks on October the 7th. Reem Alsalem, the UN Special Rapporteur on VAWG, someone for whom I have a lot of respect, posted copiously about Palestine, but failed to mention Israeli women at all.

So, I was shocked by the silence of the UN and various other 'feminist' groups, as discussed in the previous thread.

I agree with many previous posters that I think 'feminism' is such a broad term that it's not really possibly to say it has any one position on pretty much any subject - some feminism now includes fighting for men's rights, ffs.

Thank you. That's devastating.

'The International Criminal Court has only convicted two people for sexual crimes in its 22 years of existence. Even in Bosnia where world leaders vowed “never again”, the international tribunal, part of the UN security council, convicted only 36 men for sexual crimes. Women there tell me they see their perpetrators in coffee shops — or even still in the police.

No one has been prosecuted for the rape of thousands of Rohingya women by Burmese soldiers or for what Boko Haram did to thousands of Nigerian girls and women. And just one for what happened to the thousands of Yazidi women taken as sex slaves by Isis — an Iraqi prosecuted in Germany, which is leading the way by using universal jurisdiction. That means any war crime can be prosecuted in any country, not necessarily where it took place.

Next year will be ten years since Islamic State fighters entered Yazidi villages and took thousands of girls as sex-slaves. Most are still in camps, unable to go home, forgotten by the world that once made headlines about them.'

Agree with this.

This has struck me as well,
The war in Yemen has been raging for YEARS. It is in the news intermittently.

But to adress the op. No, I don’t think feminism as such has an anti-semitic problem.
It is very good to discuss this though.

Surely Pritzker is much more famous for being trans than for being Jewish?

Also, Joyce appears to have been unaware of the unspoken rule against mentioning Soros if you don't want to look like an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. (Rather ironically, it tends to be people who aren't obsessed with the Jews who don't know this rule!)

Also, Joyce appears to have been unaware of the unspoken rule against mentioning Soros if you don't want to look like an antisemitic conspiracy theorist. (Rather ironically, it tends to be people who aren't obsessed with the Jews who don't know this rule!)

Yes, I googled and apparently he has donated £18 billion of his own money to a charitable foundation that among other things works to further LGBT causes so pointing him out as being influential seems to be fair comment rather than antisemitic conspiracy theory.

@ArthurbellaScott her inability to comment on what had happened... the UN In general has been a huge cause of concern for me.

Also I agree with some feminist groups in this countries silence. Why? It feel it's wrong to say ' well they focus on one thing and getting involved would harm that cause' Is rape really that polarising? Or is it the fact it's Jewish rape?

Surely there are some causes and issues that are non negotiable really? I looked through a couple of web pages...bags to say about Palestinians tumbleweed about Israeli women.

I also saw that other thread as a safe space in a sea of threads where I can't explain my pain and anguish. Too be called a 'ghoul' for talking about women 'known' to us was a huge step to fair. Massively belittling and completely lacking in any sort of empathy. Cruel.

This

Helen Joyce rebutted the accusation of anti semitism here.

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/a-wild-ride/

I cant help but think the thread title is really silly. It is just playing into the hands of people (not just men) who want to slag of feminism and women's groups.

And no women's groups do not have to comment on what is happening between Israel and Gaza because more women's groups are local groups or service specific and have no reason to comment on international affairs.

Some local groups have commented on users reporting an increase in both anti semitism and islamaphobia as a result, I suspect, the type of tabloid reporting that this thread title encourages.

A far more relevant question is the one raise which is why the UN Women's Committee, which some of us have so recently been praising for supporting gender critical views, didn't speak up. Even if in the first instance there was no clear evidence, there is no understandably reason why they couldn't reference the then allegations based on the historical fact (which by the way there is no global day of recognition) that women are always the first victims of war, and Ukrainian women are currently suffering but no one is demanding that women's groups make some statement or other.

Already on this new thread inaccuracies have been made. Holocaust Memorial Day ceased to be just about the Holocause some time ago. Why not google before posting. It just makes this threads seem like people who've got caught up on sloganeering and makes discussion little more than bandying slogans.

One of the reasons it is impossible to have this discussion is that some people will say that any criticism of Israel or Zionism is anti semitic, even though many Jewish people criticise Israel and are totally opposed to Zionism.

I have seen lots of allegations against women saying they are anti semitic, because they have criticised the level of bombardment of civilians in Gaza. Not forgetting that the British bombing of Dresden is one of the reasons we now have a War Crimes Tribunal.

On balance, based obviously on women I know and facebook posts etc., despite those who revert to leftish language when talking about the invasion of Gaza, what most posts have revealed to me is the depth of Islamaphobia, a total othering that I have found astonishing. That some have jumped on this horrible conflict as a bandwagon that demonises Muslims and Arabs, and revel in their virtue signalling.

And without saying this about those posting on this thread, I am now so cynical about the way this is discussed that I suspect everyone of bad faith.

As to the answer to the thread title, I would support the suggestion made up thread, that it would be best left to those who are Jewish.

Holocause

sloganeering

People complaining that criticising Israel or Zionism is antisemitism

Eeekk

Obviously any government can be criticised in theory, including Israel.

Is it anti-semitism to be against Zionism?

Well, if a secular-ish homeland for Jewish people bothers you more than Hamas ideology, there is certainly something wrong with you...

No one said this.

Making up random emotive shit people didn't actually say adds nothing to the discussion.

Accusing people of not caring about women isn't likely to get them on side.

Maybe spend a little time learning some of the very complex geopolitical history of the region.

Quite. I'm starting to get fed up of this distinction between being anti semitic and anti Zionist. Being anti Zionist means the destruction of the state of Israel, wiping it off the map. That sounds pretty anti- semitic to me.

Criticism of the actions of the Israeli government is different. Just as criticism of the UN and Muslim countries including Gaza is necessary because the blame for this situation doesn't just lie with Israel.

That's a pretty reductive characterization of why a person might be anti-Zionist. "Bothered" makes it sound like it is just some vague emotion. And there's nothing to say it needs to be more or less or really anything to do with Hamas.

There were people who suggested establishing a secular Jewish homeland long before the mid 20th century. It was rejected as either undesirable, or unworkable, by many, including many Jewish people. Some who thought the idea of a secular Jewish state was irreligious. Some who thought it wouldn't really be secular, or if it was it would end up as an ethno-state and that would be bad. And also many people who thought it wasn't possible to have a politically stable Jewish state in the Middle East, and so purely pragmatically it would be a disaster. Others who say ideological Zionism as fundamentally a religious idea, and for one reason or another reject the idea that there is a religious imperative for such a state.

None of those are about being "bothered", or say anything about whether a person thinks Hamas should be running a state.

This

it’s really frustrating as a brown woman because often feminists avoid criticisms of minority men (cos racism, intersectionality etc). Yet how do you think the women in these mens spheres are treated? I do feel like feminists at times have prioritised race or other considerations over actual women.

I think it may be liberal more modern itineration of feminist who are so embedded in the idea that unless everyone has justice no-one can have justice. They just ignore the conflicts for example around womens rights vs trans rights or the rights of religious minorities vs the women in those communities. Some men believe it is just for them to have absolute control over their wives and daughters and any interference in that is religious discrimination (this is true of abrahamic religions and some eastern).

Some feminists shy away from complexity, for old fashioned feminists it’s simple because they aren’t trying to be all things to all men.
I think you can be a feminist who is deeply concerned about the victims of the 7th October attack and those in Palestine. But once you start start with rape denial then yeah you are just an anti-semite and you definitely are not a feminist in any way I would understand.

Yes, being anti-zionist is anyway trying to shut the gate well after the horse has bolted.

Israel IS a state. It is here. It was recognised as a state in 1947.
It is not collapsing inwards like Yugoslavia did.
It is not a former east bloc Soviet state in need of massive political change.
It is not a former colonial state, even though the borders were largely imposed by two major (soon to be former) colonial powers; UK and France + the US.

It is being attacked from outside its borders.

Yes. I agree about the unhelpfulness of the notion of ‘Zionism’. It’s slightly off topic for feminism, but then again, maybe not.

I am wholly supportive of having a modern secular democracy in the Middle East, in order to support the fight against totalitarianism around the globe - whether communist, religious, or monarchies. Women do spectacularly badly in all these situations, perhaps less so under secular totalitarianism.

Yet I am entirely unsupportive of this idea that tribes/religious groups are entitled to land on the basis of their genetic or cultural heritage. Imagine if we did that here? Created a country within a country and said that was for, say, descendants of the Iceni. That would be viewed as racist and unfair against everyone else. You can’t change your heritage and shouldn’t be unfairly discriminated for or against on the basis of it.

However, pragmatically, we know that the majority of people need emotions stirred in order to support political causes, and concepts like ‘homeland’, ‘stolen lands’, stir the blood, much more than notions like ‘modern secular democracy’, so the creation of the state of Israel was a perfect way to create that stronghold in the Middle East, especially after of the appalling horrors and injustices of the Holocaust, evidence of the persecution of this ‘homeless’ tribe, was palpable to everyone as it came to light.

I believe we need to continue the spread of secular democracy throughout the world, not just for the sake of women’s rights, but for human rights generally, and Palestine is a huge failure since they voted in totalitarian terrorists to lead them.

All this self-defeating guilt about feminists criticisms of patriarchal religions, religious totalitarianism, etc, spread by skewiff ‘intersectional’ analysis, means people can no longer see the truth staring them in the face.

Making up random emotive shit people didn't actually say adds nothing to the discussion.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

I half agree @JemimaFuddle but personally I think Jewish voices need to be a big (and listened to ) part of the conversation, but it also needs to be set within a wider joint dialogue/discussion between Jewish and non Jewish women, because otherwise I think everything fragments.

Also ( like the feminist community !) the Jewish community is far from homogeneous in its views. I see myself as a feminist orthodox woman, and I am part of a group called chochmat nashim who work to address women’s issues within Jewish communities and even on there many of us hold conflicting views on many issues, we are just united in a common purpose to bring positive change for women within a Jewish framework.

For what it is worth, I don’t think feminism per se has an antisemitism problem. I think certain feminist groups however have severely let down Jewish and Israeli women. UNWomen in particular. Some specific feminist groups I think do have a problem with antisemitism.

However in contrast I follow Julie Bindel and JK Rowling and some other feminists on twitter, and they stood up for Jewish and Israeli people following October 7th. I was very moved that they were very quick to show support. I’ve also noticed that they managed to do this in a way that still holds compassion for the Palestinian people. They gave nuanced views, without diminishing the pain and trauma of Jews and Israelis.

I do wonder whether some of this is due to years of fighting for women’s sex based rights, while holding firm against gender ideology, and still retaining compassion for people struggling with gender dysphoria. They have experience of having their views twisted, weaponised against them, being made out to be monsters, DARVO... I find it strikingly similar how they are demonised and called far right fascists etc for remaining firm in their beliefs regarding sex and gender.