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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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OldCrone · 07/12/2023 09:26

IcakethereforeIam · 07/12/2023 09:14

In answer to Chris Bryant's first question, the law will effect every single person in the UK, living here or even visiting, particularly women and children. If holding a GRC only affected the person holding it, there wouldn't be a problem.

Of course. The other "precise number" could be the entire population of the UK.

Datun · 07/12/2023 09:57

From The Tines article.

Elliot Colburn, a Conservative MP and co-chairman of the cross-parliamentary group on LGBT+ rights, said afterwards that “parliament has indulged in nasty anti-LGBT+ rhetoric”, adding that it had been a “truly depressing” day. Another Tory MP said privately: “If we want people to vote for us, we should stop being such a nasty party.”

Completely out of touch.

Do these people ever read the btl comments from 'their voters'??? What's 'depressing' is their complete ignorance of what not only their voters want, but the public in general.

Chris Bryant is the same. Eyes only on the handful of men in the equation. Completely incapable of seeing the entire female population as being the group who are actually affected. We don't even enter his head.

I mean what does he think is the reason Kemi is doing this??? Spite?

Being a female, GC or otherwise, in parliament, must be absolutely soul destroying.

NecessaryScene · 07/12/2023 10:06

What's 'depressing' is their complete ignorance of what not only their voters want, but the public in general.

Once you enter the headspace that you're the enlightened Good Guys, then anyone who disagrees with you is the Bad Guys, or just ignorant. So you end up deciding the majority of the population and the opposition party are just ignorant or worse, I guess.

I guess I am in effect accusing them of ignorance, but the point is I can name the specific facts that they are not addressing. And I don't have to make a good faith or bad faith call on that - I can just note that they're not addressing things.

What are the things that our side is supposed to be ignorant of? There aren't any, are there? They can't say "what about X", because there's no "X" we're not aware of. We're fully informed. So there is no way to call us out without making a bad faith judgement. They have to just jump over "what about X" to bigotry accusations.

PronounssheRa · 07/12/2023 10:09

Brilliant twitter thread https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1732578007087267946

The Labour MPs in yesterday's debate had not been briefed by people who cared about those MPs' personal reputations as competent, let alone skilled, legislators

Labour promised to make sure the overseas list only included countries with a similar approach to GRCs as the UK, when it passed the GRA in 2004.

The govt is fulfilling a Labour commitment (which it has neglected but that hyperbole was not about that).

Possibly the best bit

Ireland has never been on the list. So amending the list to take places off won't affect Ireland

You would know that if you'd ever checked if Ireland is currently on the list. Which you might do, before asking a question on the floor of the House, mightn't you?

https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1732578007087267946

Datun · 07/12/2023 10:26

NecessaryScene · 07/12/2023 10:06

What's 'depressing' is their complete ignorance of what not only their voters want, but the public in general.

Once you enter the headspace that you're the enlightened Good Guys, then anyone who disagrees with you is the Bad Guys, or just ignorant. So you end up deciding the majority of the population and the opposition party are just ignorant or worse, I guess.

I guess I am in effect accusing them of ignorance, but the point is I can name the specific facts that they are not addressing. And I don't have to make a good faith or bad faith call on that - I can just note that they're not addressing things.

What are the things that our side is supposed to be ignorant of? There aren't any, are there? They can't say "what about X", because there's no "X" we're not aware of. We're fully informed. So there is no way to call us out without making a bad faith judgement. They have to just jump over "what about X" to bigotry accusations.

Absolutely. But the specific group he's trying to impress with "If we want people to vote for us, we should stop being such a nasty party.” actively disagree with him.

All he has to do is read The Telegraph, times, or daily mail.

He might think they're ignorant, but he does know, surely to God, that they are his voters?

NecessaryScene · 07/12/2023 10:37

He might think they're ignorant, but he does know, surely to God, that they are his voters?

I get the increasing impression that politicians on board with this don't care.

Just like every other organisation is corrupted by this stuff to work against their core focus - civil liberties, women, gay people, whatever - politicians are turned against one of their most fundamental - getting elected in the first place. Being Good is more important.

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 10:44

Well there are theories that Opposition is more fun. In life and in politics.

Floisme · 07/12/2023 10:51

PronounssheRa · 07/12/2023 10:09

Brilliant twitter thread https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1732578007087267946

The Labour MPs in yesterday's debate had not been briefed by people who cared about those MPs' personal reputations as competent, let alone skilled, legislators

Labour promised to make sure the overseas list only included countries with a similar approach to GRCs as the UK, when it passed the GRA in 2004.

The govt is fulfilling a Labour commitment (which it has neglected but that hyperbole was not about that).

Possibly the best bit

Ireland has never been on the list. So amending the list to take places off won't affect Ireland

You would know that if you'd ever checked if Ireland is currently on the list. Which you might do, before asking a question on the floor of the House, mightn't you?

Ireland has never been on the list. So amending the list to take places off won't affect Ireland

You would know that if you'd ever checked if Ireland is currently on the list. Which you might do, before asking a question on the floor of the House, mightn't you?

I believe it was Anneliese Dodds who asked that question about Ireland, am I right? Not some unbriefed back bencher with one eye on their social media feed, but the Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities.

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 10:52

PronounssheRa · 07/12/2023 10:09

Brilliant twitter thread https://twitter.com/LucyHunterB/status/1732578007087267946

The Labour MPs in yesterday's debate had not been briefed by people who cared about those MPs' personal reputations as competent, let alone skilled, legislators

Labour promised to make sure the overseas list only included countries with a similar approach to GRCs as the UK, when it passed the GRA in 2004.

The govt is fulfilling a Labour commitment (which it has neglected but that hyperbole was not about that).

Possibly the best bit

Ireland has never been on the list. So amending the list to take places off won't affect Ireland

You would know that if you'd ever checked if Ireland is currently on the list. Which you might do, before asking a question on the floor of the House, mightn't you?

Fantastic. And ouch.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/12/2023 10:57

It was a bit difficult for MP's to "check the list", given that at the point KB was standing at the ballot box yesterday, the Government hadn't yet seen fit to actually publish their list.

ResisterRex · 07/12/2023 11:08

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/12/2023 10:57

It was a bit difficult for MP's to "check the list", given that at the point KB was standing at the ballot box yesterday, the Government hadn't yet seen fit to actually publish their list.

Hansard is your friend here.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-12-06/debates/E7306EC2-EFCB-4331-BD82-F01FDF67CCBF/GenderRecognition

Stephen Doughty
(Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a shame that the Secretary of State is not making a full statement on the issue of conversion therapy, because it is a concern for many Opposition Members, and we would like some actual facts, which she has not provided until now. She also has not provided the statutory instrument referred to in the statement; I do not see it lying on the Table, it is not in the Vote Office and it is not online, so we cannot scrutinise the names of the countries that are to be added to or removed from the list. From the Dispatch Box, could the Secretary of State could list those countries and clarify whether they include the United States? Has she received any diplomatic representations from the United States, or any other country whose status is due to be changed, opposing the decision she has announced?
Kemi Badenoch
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman about the statutory instrument. As far as I was aware, it had been laid. That is what I was told, so it is news to me. That should have been the case.

All the details that the hon. Gentleman has asked for will be provided in the SI. I am not going to read out a long list of countries from the Dispatch Box, but I have not received any message from the United States, so I do not think that that is an issue.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-12-06/debates/5EE7D197-67FF-42B8-B808-E03B904EE559/PointsOfOrder

Stephen Doughty
(Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)

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On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Further to the point I raised in my question to the Minister for Women and Equalities about the information that had not been provided to the House, I have a list here that appears to be a list of countries and territories that are changing status as a result of the statement and the order that is being laid, but it does not appear to have been published or to be available in the Vote Office. It includes a large number of Australian states, Canadian provinces and states of the United States, including Colorado and New Mexico, as well as New York city and New York state, and other places. It actually includes some European countries—Malta, Luxembourg—as well as Mexico in Latin America and many other locations. Could the Minister confirm for the House’s interest whether this list is correct?
Madam Deputy Speaker

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First, I believe the Minister did confirm that the order has been laid, and it should therefore be available in the Vote Office. However, the Secretary of State may like to confirm that, or if she does not have the information immediately available, to say that she will report back about it.
The Minister for Women and Equalities
(Kemi Badenoch)

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Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to confirm that the order has been laid. I have just heard from officials that it has been laid.
Hon. Members

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After the statement.
Madam Deputy Speaker

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We will ensure that it is available in the Vote Office.
Kemi Badenoch

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It was laid well before the statement to the House. I am sorry it has not been published, but it was laid, so we have done our bit.
Madam Deputy Speaker

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I think the Minister has confirmed that it was laid. We will find out why it was not in the Vote Office and come back to the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty).

OldCrone · 07/12/2023 11:09

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/12/2023 10:57

It was a bit difficult for MP's to "check the list", given that at the point KB was standing at the ballot box yesterday, the Government hadn't yet seen fit to actually publish their list.

Anneliese Dodds must have seen the revised list or she couldn't have known that Ireland wasn't on it.

Anyone can see the current list and see that Ireland isn't on that either.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

Gender Recognition Certificate: list of approved countries and territories

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

PronounssheRa · 07/12/2023 11:14

Floisme · 07/12/2023 10:51

Ireland has never been on the list. So amending the list to take places off won't affect Ireland

You would know that if you'd ever checked if Ireland is currently on the list. Which you might do, before asking a question on the floor of the House, mightn't you?

I believe it was Anneliese Dodds who asked that question about Ireland, am I right? Not some unbriefed back bencher with one eye on their social media feed, but the Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities.

Show quote history

Yes it was Annalise Dodds Shadow Minister for Women and Equalities.

Clearly doesn't know her brief, which is worrying

Floisme · 07/12/2023 11:16

If Ireland have never been on the list then that presumably includes the list originally prepared by the Labour Government in 2004.
Call me demanding but I would expect a Shadow Minister to do their homework before choosing to raise it in a Commons Debate.

ArthurbellaScott · 07/12/2023 11:28

Something to do with not getting laid?

Chersfrozenface · 07/12/2023 11:30

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/12/2023 10:57

It was a bit difficult for MP's to "check the list", given that at the point KB was standing at the ballot box yesterday, the Government hadn't yet seen fit to actually publish their list.

The tweet is referring to this list dated, as you will see, December 2022.

Which Ireland isn't on

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

Gender Recognition Certificate: list of approved countries and territories

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories/gender-recognition-certificate-list-of-approved-countries-and-territories

Chersfrozenface · 07/12/2023 11:32

Cross posted as not quick enough

Soz.

duc748 · 07/12/2023 11:34

Well the contrast in that footage between KB and Dodds was certainly stark, put it that way. Once again it seems, every time a Labour pol opens their mouth, I feel less inclined to vote for them.

PronounssheRa · 07/12/2023 11:37

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/874/schedule/made

2005 list, Ireland is not on it. If I can find this, why can't the shadow secretary or one of her staff? There is a massive library in the commons (and it's all on line)

She does not inspire confidence

The Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) Order 2005

This Order prescribes the countries and territories that are approved by the Secretary of State for the purposes of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (the “Act”).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/874/schedule/made

Floisme · 07/12/2023 11:40

duc748 · 07/12/2023 11:34

Well the contrast in that footage between KB and Dodds was certainly stark, put it that way. Once again it seems, every time a Labour pol opens their mouth, I feel less inclined to vote for them.

Same. And to think this could have been a great opportunity for Anneliese Dodds to put clear water between the Labour Party and self ID, and to reassure voters like me that, when they talk about 'single-sex exemptions'. they're not just playing some arcane word game.

SabrinaThwaite · 07/12/2023 11:44

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 07/12/2023 10:57

It was a bit difficult for MP's to "check the list", given that at the point KB was standing at the ballot box yesterday, the Government hadn't yet seen fit to actually publish their list.

Anneliese Dodds had been given the statement in advance so absolutely could have checked her facts beforehand.

I heard this and a segment on Nick Fletcher questioning Gillian Keegan on trans advice for schools on the BBC R4’s Today in Parliament last night - both items given quite a lot of prominence.

ResisterRex · 07/12/2023 11:48

Anneliese Dodds had been given the statement in advance.

Yes. Again the Hansard is so handy:

Madam Deputy Speaker
(Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the shadow Minister.
Anneliese Dodds
(Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Minister for Women and Equalities for advance sight of her statement.

It goes on.

Cailleach1 · 07/12/2023 11:53

Ireland didn’t do a gender ‘recognition’ act until 2015, so wouldn’t have been on a list before then anyway. Shoved through without any thought, question or care for the consequences for women. Ca. 80% male parliament rubber stamped it. No public debate or scrutiny such as the constitutional changing abortion vote had.

You basically send off a form with a tenner (not precise amount), and you can access spaces for the other sex. I think male bastions such as the church were exempted, of course. No similar concern for women being at risk of assault, or disenfranchised from opportunities for women and girls because yet another male arse (with gender certificate in hand) takes it.

IcakethereforeIam · 07/12/2023 11:57

Does anyone know if any other country with grc's have the secrecy clause?

ResisterRex · 07/12/2023 11:59

I think male bastions such as the church were exempted, of course.

Like the peerages exemption. Wonder how that now fits with "for all purposes". Plus the FtM matter of maternity leave, which the TRAs conveniently ignore.