Reasons not to have pronouns in work email for senior colleague please

[horseymum]

I was asked yesterday in a casual office chat if we should have pronouns in our email signatures 'because lots of other organisations do'. I said no, it's proven to be detrimental to women which he was quite happy with but I'd like a bit more to add to this. I'm fairly new into the organisation so gently making views known. I will also probably have to explain not wearing of rainbow laces due to Stonewall affiliation and the fact I think women should be able to compete fairly in sport and that whole movement is so trans focused.

If you work at a hugely pro-trans place and if all else fails, point out that if someone is thinking of transitioning but haven't decided yet, this will force them to make a declaration. I refuse to do it and this argument will be my go to. I will also offer to add "lesbian" to my signature if they demand it. This will shut them up

i’m self-employed and luckily haven’t been in a situation yet where I’ve been asked to announce or display “my” pronouns. But I have a plan for what to say if it happens. I agree with the reasons given already, but another is that it’s discriminatory against several groups.

I don’t want to be part of dictating what pronouns people should use for me, because I don’t feel it’s my place to insist. What if someone is not a native English speaker, has mental disabilities, dementia, autism, visual or hearing problems or just genuinely mistakes me for a man? (which does happen sometimes, from a distance or from behind as I’m tall with short hair). It’s discriminatory for people to be made to feel shame or get told off for getting it wrong when they may have a good reason, and it really doesn’t matter that much to me (because i know I’m female so I don’t need enforced “validation”, though I probably wouldn’t say that bit out loud…)

So in short I would prefer to avoid doing something that puts unfair pressure on people with disadvantages or protected characteristics.

Stick that in your DEI pipe and smoke it!

If your reason for not displaying your pronouns in your email is faux concern that a still closeted trans person might be forced to out themselves isn’t this just playing into the hands of activists because you are arguing from a trans ideological perspective.

Agree with asking what other protected characteristics you should display? Religion? Marital status? Sexual orientation?

Just say you are undecided about gender ideology as you have read different opinions in the media and on the radio and so you are abstaining from any gender practice until you have researched more as you don’t want to be on the wrong side of history

Trans peoples’ feelings are more important than anyone else’s, so to force them to misgender themselves is literal violence.
Forcing everyone else to buy into this ideology is ok though.

I just said ‘no I won’t be compelled - and I don’t like bullies’. Then added that I thought it was performative nonsense and silly.

No you're just using their own argument against them that's all. And hope someone sees the lack of logic

I think @MagpiePi is being sarcastic, but any opportunity to bring Mr Menno songs into convo! 😁

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5DRwbRGYcr0

And the fact that Aja the Empress is in it makes it even better! (Sorry for slight derail)

I'd just be wary of fighting gender ideology using their absurd arguments and adopting their dodgy logic. I think there is a risk of it back firing.

Some reasons:
When women draw attention to their sex, it can evoke bias
You might be outing someone who is uncertain about their identity
The notion of gender identity is a political hot potato;

You could ask him: is workplace really the place for contentious politics? Follow up with: For example, would you ask people to indicate their race, disability, religious belief, or age in their email signature? (ie other of the Equality Act protected characteristics)

I can imagine that if I were trans but not yet out, any gendered signal to the world that did not align with how I felt would be difficult. Why would ‘allies’ add more? I’m fine with voluntary pronouns for those who want to participate. For the rest of us, it forces us either into revealing something about ourselves we prefer to keep private (ideological views, feelings about who we are) or to be dishonest about them. Of course, TRAs and useful idiots couldn’t care less when it’s GC women on the receiving end of this, but it beats me why they can’t see that it could also affect the people they profess to be doing this for.

To the op’s question, personally I feel that saying how focusing on your sex-based and/or gender-based identity at work does not feel like progress for women is a perfectly good approach. I have recently encountered this at work in the form not of pronouns but titles. I work with a lot of people overseas who habitually refer to people in the third person with Mr, Mrs, etc. This has nothing to do with the trans issue imo as I am happy enough to choose a title for the purposes of filling out forms. But I absolutely do not feel comfortable making a ‘thing’ of my sex and marital status in a work context. I see no real reason to get bogged down in the trans topic when it comes down to pronouns only.

In real life anyone using pronouns that don’t align to their sex is obvious. Have people been so tricked by photoshop and filters on social media that they believe ‘noone can ever tell’? In real life, yes you can.

But we are expect to pretend otherwise, the ‘logic’ being if everyone uses them then no one can tell who is trans and who isn’t. And we are just being ‘kind’ by telling untruths and joining in. Why would we go out of our way to be unkind? I’m sure a lot of us have in the past worked with people who have changed their name and undertaken some degree of body modification. The demands and insults are ramping up, and girls and women are losing out and being bullied out of their own spaces and places. All to ‘be kind’. Who is being kind to us? And why should we have to rely on the kindness of men to live our lives?

Another odd thing is that in any other context, it's seen as totally understandable to be annoyed, alarmed or disapproving about someone pretending to be or disguising themself as something they're not, and appropriating someone else's reality - let alone insisting everyone around them pretends to agree!

You don't get to "identify" as anything else in this way and then get to force people to join in the lie and punish them if they don't - and rope in institutions and laws to do the same. Whether it's race, disability, age, your job/qualifications, whatever - even if your disguise is successful and someone is fooled, it's still massively frowned on, and that's normal human instinct, to stigmatise that kind of deception and appropriation.

So why can't I not be happy about a male claiming to be a woman and feel upset and annoyed by it? It makes total sense to feel that. It's massively disrepectful to the sex you are claiming to be to say you are them in some mystical way. It's not "beyond the pale" at all to be put out by it and not think you should have to agree. It's a normal human reaction that we're all being expected to repress.

I agree with this. It can be amusing to “outwoke the woke” and turn their own ideology against them, but too many of the activists have not heard the word NO and need to do so. The more people who voice their rejection of this ideology the better.

It's against the Yogyakarta principles, they are the international gold standard and should be adhered to.

Also for women it often indicates marital status that has nothing to do with the ability to do a job.

I don’t think pronouns should ever be compulsory. However as the mother of a gay son I have recently added by pronouns as he had some very well thought out arguments about why it matters - and importantly it’s of benefit to others not me! On the other hand it does me no harm at all? Not worth me repeating the arguments here as I find MN very bigoted on this topic. I would be more concerned about identifying as ‘Mrs’ as that’s entirely unnecessary in the work place. Most of the new people I work with I interact via email initially and there are a lot of ‘non traditional’ names these days. I think pro nouns help, but maybe that’s just me. Couldn’t care less whether people are gay, trans etc. I repeat I don’t support it being compulsory. But just don’t get why people are so against it? By all means take a moral position on this and do your own thing but maybe just think beyond what it means for you personally?

Please could you share what his arguments are?

Not worth me repeating the arguments here as I find MN very bigoted on this topic

Usually translates as “the arguments are weak as piss and when people pull them apart on MN the only option left is to call them bigots and flounce”.

They are not my arguments (already seen the abusive posters on here) and I will probably not do them justice. But it’s along the lines of normalising being clear about the gender you identify as (which may or may not already be clear from a name). It makes it easier for those who want to be treated as male/female/neutral to make that clear in a simple way, because the majority do it rather than just the minority where they struggle with making their chosen gender clear. But I know I will be flamed here so won’t comment any more other than to say the narrow minded views expressed by some MNs on this issue make me realise how far we really have to go to make gender identity a non-issue.

'maybe just think beyond what it means for you personally?'

Look beyond the detriment to me personally, look beyond the fact I don't believe in gender identity, and pretend I believe just to appease those who do?

That's fine - so long as all men accept a pay cut and everyone agrees to accept Jesus as their personal saviour in exchange. Deal?

What about those of us who can't yet be publically 'out'?

I am also 63 and definitely feel the same about ' pronouns'.

If I am asked I will say 'Elinor' and work the rest out for yourself!

But I know I will be flamed here so won’t comment any more other than to say the narrow minded views expressed by some MNs on this issue make me realise how far we really have to go to make gender identity a non-issue.

Gender identity is a made up phenomenon that is being written into legislation despite the fact no one can define it. So it’s never going to be a non-issue as long as there are intelligent people around.