Reasons not to have pronouns in work email for senior colleague please

[horseymum]

I was asked yesterday in a casual office chat if we should have pronouns in our email signatures 'because lots of other organisations do'. I said no, it's proven to be detrimental to women which he was quite happy with but I'd like a bit more to add to this. I'm fairly new into the organisation so gently making views known. I will also probably have to explain not wearing of rainbow laces due to Stonewall affiliation and the fact I think women should be able to compete fairly in sport and that whole movement is so trans focused.

But I don't identify with any gender.

The whole social construct of 'gender' is damaging to society and particularly harmful to women / girls.

If I were called Alex, Chris or Jude I might put pronouns in my email signature. Or if I had a name from another culture that people don't automatically recognize as gendered. Otherwise I don't get it.

If you send me an email and sign off as "Maisie Smith" or "Tallulah Jones" I will assume you are using she/her pronouns, whatever your birth sex. I can't see you so whether you are trans or not is irrelevant, surely?

Similarly, if you sign off as "Peter Smith" or "Donald Jones" I will use he/him as you have written using a male name. I couldn't care less if you are a transman, you are just some lines of text on my work computer.

If I actually know you, for example if you are a work colleague, you don't need to use pronouns in your email signature as I am not an idiot and know that you are male or female. In the unlikely event that my colleague John becomes Joan I am not going to deliberately stick to calling Joan he/him as that would be combative and unkind; I will be courteous to Joan in the workplace. But Joan doesn't need she/her in her email either, as by signing off as Joan she is indicating that she wishes to be referred to using female pronouns.

It's all just illogical and a bit silly.

Focus on the guidance from the Sports Councils about fairness in sport and the importance of being clear about male and female categories.

www.sportengland.org/news/new-guidance-transgender-inclusion-domestic-sport-published

Without knowing the sex of sporting participants, this guidance cannot be implemented.

Please don't use the argument that there may be transpeople.who would feel outed by a requirement to use pronouns.

I refuse to have anything on my signature or in any other guise that suggests support or views in anything or indicates preferred pronoun. If they can't work out I'm a women then they are being stupid. I can't be arsed with it frankly.

If increasing female participation in sport is an objective of the organisation, focus on how conscious and unconscious stereotypes and gender based assumptions are detrimental to that effort.

This organisation is very clear on why sex matters in sport and has good evidence on how to increase participation.

https://womeninsport.org/creating-change/policy-positions/transgender-inclusion-sport/safe-and-fair-sport-for-women-and-girls/

The presence of pronouns on all communications significantly increases the number of times those party to the conversations are subconsciously reminded of gender and sex based stereotypes.

If we want all communication to be received and read objectively, then gender should not be introduced into this space except when necessary.

Women cannot identify out of the reasons which prevent them from equal participation in sport. Forcing pronoun communication on all women brings with it the unconscious assumption that we opt into stereotypes.

I don’t think pronouns should ever be compulsory.

I agree with this. If someone wants to state their pronouns or religion or their sexual orientation in their email signature I don’t care. But the moment they expect me to that’ll be a big fat “no”.

But just don’t get why people are so against it?

If you genuinely don’t get why people are against it here is a blog that thoroughly goes through the arguments made why we should include them and the reasons why people may wish to refuse.

By all means take a moral position on this and do your own thing but maybe just think beyond what it means for you personally?

Perhaps the trans activists who are pushing this ideological position should also think “beyond what it means for them personally” instead of attempting to force others to use the language of their ideology.

Not worth me repeating the arguments here as I find MN very bigoted on this topic.

How on earth is it bigoted to not include a pronoun in an email signature? Is this where we are now that people are being called names like “bigot” for failure to show allegiance to an ideology that they don’t agree with?

https://womansplaceuk.org/2021/06/27/share-pronouns-at-work/

Very good point.

And that subconscious reminder also frames that this is the culture, and the one acceptable belief.

It's no different to asking people to say a prayer together at the start of every meeting, or to have the sign of the cross and a few lines from the bible at the bottom of every email.

Perhaps the trans activists who are pushing this ideological position should also think “beyond what it means for them personally” instead of attempting to force others to use the language of their ideology.

This.

The demands for kindness and tolerance are never reciprocal.

The transwomen that I know use female names. If they are corresponding by email, to someone who has never met them (and can therefore see they are obviously men in dresses) they would I guess use those female names, so adding 'she/her' is surely redundant.

On the other hand it does me no harm at all?

Unfortunately it may do. As well reminding everyone of your female “gender”, which is not in your interests in a very sexist world, it has other implications too. For some people and in some contexts, it may make them think you are male (because as well as allies, it’s what trans people often do) and they might want to avoid you because of that (eg they’re running a female-only group). For other people, it’s a signifier that you’re a follower of an ideology that is harmful to women’s and gay rights and is not based on evidence. That says a rapist should go in a women’s prison or hospital ward if he says he’s a woman. That says women should be pushed out of the way so that males can take their places, medals and cash prizes in sports. That says same-sex attraction lies akin to racism and all gay people should accept the opposite sex as partners if they declare themselves trans.

You do know trans ideology teaches that same-sex attraction is wrong and bigoted, right? That’s what you’re announcing you agree with.

It's important to recognise that pronouns are powerful. For good or bad we have deeply ingrained responses to them, and they do influence how we think about people.

Back in the old days, before trans was a thing, we all knew that pronouns mattered. When feninists campaigned to stop using "he/his/him" to mean "people in general including women", it was because everyone knew (though not everyone cared) that when people read or heard "he" they first understood "male people" and that if something had different effects on women or meant something different when it was applied to women, then using "he" meant it didn't seem as important as the effect on men and the way it applied to men.

There used to be an argument that gender neutral writing was just too difficult and awkward. Which it was .... until it came to an article describing tech mistakes made by both sexes and the mistakes made by women were described with lots of female pronouns but it was worth using gender neutral language (even the much-hated passive tense!) to describe the mistakes men had made. The effect was to make it look as if women made most of the mistakes, though the article described roughly even numbers.

By all means take a moral position on this and do your own thing but maybe just think beyond what it means for you personally?

I think about what it means for women. Half the population.

And I don't assume that other people who do wave their pronouns about, are necessarily doing so for bad reasons. There are some good reasons to do it, and also good reasons not to do it. I judge that the reasons not to do it are stronger.

By all means take a moral position on this and do your own thing but maybe just think beyond what it means for you personally?

i did. And like a PP I think it is a terrible idea because it disadvantages anyone’s with sight, hearing or memory issues, those with anxiety, neurodivergence, English as a second language …..

so if we are playing a numbers game. There is an order of magnitude more people falling into the above categories than there are with a trans identity.

Apology for typos, formatting etc. the cat is keen to be involved in this.

My cat is also a passionate bugger for keyboard walking advocate for equality meaning everyone and not 'everyone else must serve the unreasonable wants of that one tiny group and abandon their own equality and access'.

I miss having a small furry four-pawed companion to stomp all over my keyboard. Or (once, memorably) throw up on it. All in the interests of equality of opportunity, natch.

The Yogyakarta principles were written by an activist group and are not any sort of international gold standard.

Pronouns don't indicate marital status. Miss/Mrs are titles, not pronouns.