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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

1000 replies

ArthurbellaScott · 18/11/2023 09:31

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

MeToo unless you're a Jew

Feminist groups are whitewashing Hamas's crimes

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew

OP posts:
Thread gallery
119
Trulywonderful · 03/12/2023 01:37

ArthurbellaScott · 02/12/2023 22:54

Survivor's guilt will be a factor for many of the released hostages, too.

Yes I think your right

It is absolutely heart breaking

HagoftheNorth · 03/12/2023 09:33

While recognising the damage and pain being inflicted on Gaza by Israel; I think it’s also crucial to recognise not only the horror of 7th October, but also that that horror is still ongoing. Hamas and related organisations continue to hold Israeli women hostage, and we can only imagine what they are going through.

For this first time last night, I heard someone point out on the radio that Hamas could stop all this right now if they released the hostages & laid down their arms. They could recognise the State of Israel’s right to exist.

The fact that Egypt won’t open its border to allow Palestinians through (despite being required to by international law) speaks volumes.

ArthurbellaScott · 03/12/2023 10:32

The ceasefire ended, according to the Times of Israel, because Hamas refused to release more women and children.

There was speculation as to why they refused to do this; I don't know how accurate it is.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-backs-israeli-claim-that-hamas-still-has-female-hostages-that-it-could-release/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-truce-fell-apart-after-hamas-refused-to-release-more-israeli-female-hostages/

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Annasgirl · 04/12/2023 10:16

Ah Here you all are. I tried to find comments on these articles after I read them yesterday. Unsurprisingly there was nothing on the whole Middle East Crisis board.

I am totally appalled by what happened in Israel in October 7th and what continues to happen to
the hostages. I listened to a frightening analysis of this conflict as being one devised to drive a wedge between the EU and the US and to tear apart Western countries with street protests. And of course, the enduring horror to all Jewish women that they are not safe in their own homes from the horror of gang rape. As the Christina Lamb article notes, this will go down through the generations of Jewish women.

It is sad to think I live in a country where even our government are not supporting Israel through this trauma.

Treaclewell · 04/12/2023 10:23

They discussed the rapes during the Hamas attack on Today, since the UN has finally recognised them as a war crime. Worse than Isis did to the Yazidis or done in Bosnia, they said, and also obviously deliberately planned as part of the attack, exactly the same behaviour in different places. Not just rape, but mutilations, not desvribed, and murder.
What part of evolution has led to men being able to use that part intended for reproduction as a weapon? Women were observed bleeding. This is different from an individual man getting wrong signals. This is to deprive Israelis of the bext generation.
I'm a Quaker. It's against my beliefs to deny these men the use of the weapon, and the passing on of their genes, and their commanding officers, right up the chain of command. They need to be bred out. But ....

turbonerd · 04/12/2023 12:57

*this first time last night, I heard someone point out on the radio that Hamas could stop all this right now if they released the hostages & laid down their arms. They could recognise the State of Israel’s right to exist.

The fact that Egypt won’t open its border to allow Palestinians through (despite being required to by international law) speaks volumes.*

This is what is needed.
Land has always been colonised. I refuse to believe anyone on Mumsnet live in a land that hasn’t at one point in the last 2000 yrs been colonised by invaders - in various degrees of brutal fashion.
It sucks, but here we are. The UK, France and the US gave Judea to the Jews after ww2 because there was already a contigent of jews living there. Israel the nation was created.
Most of the countries we know of were created within the last 150 years.
Not excellent, and often just by Lines drawn on Maps by European colonial powers, but there it is.

If Hamas wants a state that explicitly wants to wipe out all jewish humans … That is not compatible with International law. Maybe it is with Sharia law, I don’t know, but not with any sort of human rights charter or law based on these.

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 13:37

SharSharBinks · 03/12/2023 00:11

I'm not at all surprised to see feminists being dismissive tbh after the recent thread on here where they were actively downplaying the Rotherham sex scandal and gaslighting posters that were saying many traditional Islamic cultures were patriarchal/repressive to women (which I agree with tbf).

All in the name of misguided political correctness.

Can we stop with bollocks comments like this? Feminism is a vast movement with opposing thoughts. Women who call themselves ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal’ feminists, are not people I, or many feminists like me, can recognize as feminists at all. Feminists of my ilk unequivocally condemn male violence against women.

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 13:40

It is historical revisionism in real time, with the naked aim of questioning the victimisation of Israeli Jews in order to sanctify the hallowed victim status of Palestinians

This comment from Brandon O’Neill in that Spiked article really nails it. This is behind all the denial.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2023 13:41

I am not sure if anyone posted these articles about Hamas rape earlier on in the thread, but here are two going back a month, about the lack of evidence collecting by the Israeli state.

It was tan an Israeli paper that lead on this, then it was picked up by the Guardian. It is one reason why it has taken so long for people in the West to properly pick up on it.

Here is my Google translation of the Israeli newspaper article:

From Israeli newspaper
Yedioth Ahronoth

Ronen Bergman Updated:06.11.23 |

The omission of the testimonies and evidence will make it difficult to bring the sadists to international justice

Videos documenting the horrors of October 7 are deleted from Hamas Telegram channels. A large part of the bodies were not recorded at all and tractors drive over the scenes of the massacre. Many survivors were not asked to testify. 4 different bodies deal with the collection of information, but they are not synchronized, sometimes

Every day that passes, every hour that passes, every minute that passes since the day that changed us all - takes us away from completing the picture of what happened there. More bodies are buried without documentation, more crime scenes are crushed under the paws of the tractors that came to protest the memories of death and sadism, more short videos on one of the 150 Hamas Telegram channels evaporate from the web (because they too are beginning to understand that documenting crimes against humanity does not really help their international status ), more fresh evidence is not collected - and may be buried forever under the shock and post-trauma

The evidence and testimonies about the most important event that took place here at least since the Yom Kippur War are not preserved, not preserved, not investigated as a single piece - and accordingly do not yield conclusions, do not establish international indictments and do not integrate into the media campaign which aims to keep these Nazi atrocities at the forefront of the world agenda .

The State of Israel could have made such an orderly and evidence-rich study its leading political and international trump card, and perhaps with its help it would have succeeded in dramatically changing the attitude of the world - or at least parts of it - to the activities in Gaza. She could, but she didn't. This is how it is when the prime minister appoints him as a spokesperson for the international media only 16 days after the outbreak of war, and this important role becomes part of the time a side task, along the way, of the political advisor. Benjamin Netanyahu himself, the national commentator, who always found time to be interviewed by the world's media, stopped his appearances there precisely at a time when they were so
important.

But beyond the immediate, practical benefit, for the sake of information - how is it possible that the State of Israel, which was built on the Holocaust and its aftermath, does not see this documentation as a special commandment, of national priority, that justifies a budget of hundreds of millions and the establishment of a special HML? We are raised in our duty as Israelis, as Jews , as Middle Easterners, as human beings

In the name of my parents, the survivors of the Holocaust, Miriam and Shmuel, may their memory be blessed, and I am sure - in the name of many more of those who perished, and their living descendants, I want to say to the government ministers and the offices of the prime minister and foreign affairs and other parties who had to deal with this: shame on you.

ministerial impotence
Turning the horrors of Hamas on October 7th from an accumulation of terrorist events into an event in its own league, a new standard of indifference to human life, while inventing new methods of causing indescribable suffering, was supposed to take place in two ways: bringing to the world's knowledge of their existence, their dimensions, details and extraordinary wickedness of the acts, in a manner that cannot be obtained; And building an array of evidence not only against the approximately 200 Nohva people who were captured and are being investigated by the Shin Bet and Amman, but also against Hamas and anyone associated with the organization - evidence that will stand and hold like hardened steel, in any international legal forum.
Both of these avenues should rely on a centrally directed hand, careful collection and enormous resources for obtaining evidence and documenting it. In Israel there are now a lot of military personnel, underground and above ground, with several thousand young and old people from all parts of Israeli society who know how to find solutions to the impossible, and in a short time. Nahon, a friend has from scratch artificial intelligence systems with powerful computers, to write new algorithms, which will run on thousands of hours of video and audio and text at the same time as hundreds of people improving the information, all to help locate and recover the kidnapped - is one example that inspire
a very positive example that we can talk about.

But, at the same time, this is another example of the impotence of the unqualified ministers and the entire crumbling system under them, and how civil society, in many cases the one that previously led the protest against the legal coup, simply enters the vacuum created because there is no one to save

This is also how the treatment of crimes against humanity should have been conducted - a central HML, under which everything is, and from which the two paths are turned: bringing the material to the attention of media outlets in the world, who can verify for themselves its reliability, analyze it and study it (because most of it cannot be published , due to the difficult content) and at the same time, a careful collection of evidence that will help as legal material before any tribunal

Abroad is not enough
Say: But there are already countless movies, we've all seen them, who else needs to prove that Hamas terrorists are like Nazis? The answer to this is threefold. First, the public in Israel did not see everything. Definately not. Not even a small part. and better this way. The horrors are much greater.

Second, the event that changed our world and changed it forever did not necessarily leave the same mark on others, and many people do not understand what happened at all. And thirdly, even today there are those who doubt it, and not just Queen Rania.

A European journalist told an official Israeli representative after seeing the terror film made by the IDF spokesman, that even in view of what you see there (and you see - it is a film that shakes the soul and heart) Israel still has not proven its position. As time passes, more and more doubts will arise, That way it will be more important for major media outlets to conclude that these are real films. The anonymously edited recordings lacking details of device, time and place, that the Shin Bet or the IDF occasionally release, are accepted by the Israeli public and media. Abroad, what to do, and not only Because they hate Jews, we need more than that.

Already now Hamas realizes what damage it has caused itself, and is trying to place the responsibility for the atrocities on the civilian infiltrators from Gaza. This is a blatant lie, and the mental preparations that Hamas made for its terrorists in order to spur them on to commit the heinous acts will be revealed, but beyond that: if they collected all the evidence in an orderly manner, many proofs would accumulate that Hamas itself encouraged the people of Gaza to infiltrate into Israel, to loot, to torture , murder and kidnap

When the members of the IDF and the Shin Bet, and especially the members of the IDF spokesperson in regular and reserve positions, who have taken on this sacred task even though it is not their job at all and are stretched to the limit because of the war, request to present evidence from October 7 to foreign media about In order to change the way they relate to Hamas, they encounter bureaucratic walls and various difficulties that make publication slow and complicated, and not at all adapted to today's times. In order to reveal materials from the Balhot collection to journalists or senior officials abroad, an IDF representative must be present in the room, to make sure they don't take pictures of the screen with their phone. An organized and budgeted setup would solve this problem, and make the presentation of the materials much faster and more effective.
The Ministry of Justice claims in response that "the allegations of negligence on the part of the state are irresponsible and have no basis", and add that "since October 7, intensive investigative and legal activity has been carried out, with an overall view of the entire terrorist attack, in all its aspects", and in cooperation with all the bodies - The Shin Bet, the Israel Police and the IDF, under the close supervision of the State Attorney's Office and the legal advice to the government and while allocating "extensive, senior and experienced personnel from all organizations." What was assigned, when, what does it do, and what is the purpose of the entire project? The Ministry of Justice says that "for obvious reasons it is not possible to reveal more than that at this stage." The truth - not really understood. But I wish they were right.

Ukraine precedent
Meanwhile, not a single house in any kibbutz in the Gaza Envelope, at least as of a few days ago, was marked as a crime scene, not documented, not blocked from entering; A large part of the bodies that were brought in for identification were not photographed, and those that were photographed for the most part only opened the bag partially and recorded a bit of the upper part, and what could be extracted from them as evidence was lost forever.

Thousands of witnesses, if not tens of thousands, were not asked to reproduce what happened.

Four huge databases were created that hold large amounts of information: in the special operations unit (SOM), in the Shin Bet, in a secret unit of the operations wing and elsewhere. They have a selection that is partly different and partly overlapping - among other things, a huge harvest from the terrorists' head cameras, or from hundreds of closed-circuit cameras in the kibbutzim - and no one knows exactly what the other one has. The repositories are designed and built each for a different purpose, and are defined as secret. The public cannot be exposed to them.

It didn't have to be this way. A few days after the Russian invasion, which put all of Ukraine in existential danger, teams of the General Prosecutor's Office were already deployed at all border crossings between Ukraine and its neighbors, where hundreds of thousands of refugees began their journey to a safer place. "We meet them there and collect evidence from them about what happened," the state's attorney general told Ziv Koren and Lee at the time. In addition, Ministry of Justice personnel throughout Ukraine were recruited for this task, and the State Attorney's Office opened a special website, "a platform that will allow anyone who thinks they were a witness or victim of a war crime to upload material - personal testimony, photographs of pieces of machine guns or missiles, video documentation, anything, in a way secure and with complete protection of his privacy."
Other materials were collected from journalists, citizens and various organizations that were involved in helping refugees and documenting the actions of the Russians. And all of this, a huge array of dimensions that includes hundreds of employees, is happening while the country is fighting for its very existence - in recognition of the importance of the ability of Ukraine and the international community to come to terms the day after with those who committed these terrible crimes, and to publish large parts of this information in real time. Thus, indictments were prepared against thousands of members of the security forces and the Russian political elite.Even in the case of the legal and public confrontation with the actions of Hamas, the state needs someone from above who will determine that this is a supreme national effort, budget it, discuss it - and make sure the whole world knows 06/11/23 First published

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 13:44

I also wonder if all those ‘show us the rapes’ people have spent so many years/ decades watching women being raped on pornhub et al, that they have forgotten that it is not acceptable to watch women being raped and are completely dehumanized to the trauma it causes women and their families for their rape to be broadcast to the general public.

I can’t think of other reasons why so many can say ‘ show us the rapes ‘ and not realise how utterly repellant that is.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2023 13:44

Guardian article about a month ago reflecting the Israeli newspaper report I just posted a translation of.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-womens-groups-warn-of-failure-to-keep-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks

Link to original Israeli article about evidence of rape being undocumented and unshared- in case anyone can read Hebrew or would like to get their own translation:
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13660087#autoplay?utm_source=www.ynet.co.il&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=general_share" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13660087#autoplay?utm_source=www.ynet.co.il&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=general_share

Israel women’s groups warn of failure to keep evidence of sexual violence in Hamas attacks

Rights groups fear lack of investigative work means gender-based nature of some of violence has been overlooked

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/10/israel-womens-groups-warn-of-failure-to-keep-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2023 13:46

I am not sure if this has been linked but here is a photo of Janice Turner’s brilliant article on Hamas rapes.

Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.
noblegiraffe · 04/12/2023 14:10

I think there is a rush to blame Israel for not collecting the data to absolve from responsibility those organisations who should have spoken up the minute they saw the footage of Shani Louk’s broken body paraded in the back of the truck, and the footage of girls being led away with blood on their trousers.

Women here didn’t seem to have a problem identifying what had happened despite the lack of investigation.

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 14:32

noblegiraffe · 04/12/2023 14:10

I think there is a rush to blame Israel for not collecting the data to absolve from responsibility those organisations who should have spoken up the minute they saw the footage of Shani Louk’s broken body paraded in the back of the truck, and the footage of girls being led away with blood on their trousers.

Women here didn’t seem to have a problem identifying what had happened despite the lack of investigation.

I agree. It’s another deflection tactic. Anything, anything to divert attention from Hamas’ responsibility and to seek to put blame onto Israel.

It’s quite extraordinary, and disgusting, to watch unfold.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/12/2023 14:53

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 14:32

I agree. It’s another deflection tactic. Anything, anything to divert attention from Hamas’ responsibility and to seek to put blame onto Israel.

It’s quite extraordinary, and disgusting, to watch unfold.

Just to be clear, Yedioth Ahronoth Israeli newspaper article I posted earlier
was written 6 NOV so a month ago and the Guardian article reflecting it was written 10 NOV.

So neither is reflective a purpose to deflect blame now there is some belated outcry against Hamas rapes and savagery.

The Yedioth Abronoth article constituted a passionate cry in the dark, only published in Hebrew, saying exactly that Hamas rapes were being ignored and the crime scene evidence lost.

EdithStourton · 04/12/2023 16:28

I read an article (I think Times of Israel) which said that often evidence wasn't collected due to a simple lack of sufficient forensics capacity: not enough people to check each body fully and take proper samples. It also took a long time to recover and ID the dead (latter still ongoing).

So that will be part of the reason.

Imnobody4 · 04/12/2023 18:15

I don't think people grasp the difficulty and enormity of the task of collecting evidence in these circumstances. Armchair experts.

I've just watched an event at the UN about gender and violence of the Hamas attack. A really hard watch, many of the speakers denounced Feminists and the UN for their stance of silence. The meeting has close now but I assume it will be uploaded indue course

webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1u/k1u8mfvmcm

ArthurbellaScott · 04/12/2023 18:26

Imnobody4 · 04/12/2023 18:15

I don't think people grasp the difficulty and enormity of the task of collecting evidence in these circumstances. Armchair experts.

I've just watched an event at the UN about gender and violence of the Hamas attack. A really hard watch, many of the speakers denounced Feminists and the UN for their stance of silence. The meeting has close now but I assume it will be uploaded indue course

webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1u/k1u8mfvmcm

I'm glad someone is pointing it out. I am finding it terrifying that it could be ignored.

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Trulywonderful · 04/12/2023 19:53

It has taken them way to long but finally some organisations and media are getting there. We just have to wait and see if others decide to take notice and condemn what happened to these men, women and children.

Probably won't be holding my breath waiting in some cases because even if they do manage not to deny the rapes their will be a crazy excuse or a whatabout. They won't just react appropriately.

Lolapusht · 04/12/2023 20:07

I think that part of why evidence hadn’t been collated was that the attack was just so overwhelming. 000s of terrorists attack your country. They torture, rape, kill and kidnap men, women and children effectively starting a war against you. You’re immediately on the defensive against an opponent you thought you knew, but it soon becomes apparent just how murderous they actually are. You see what atrocities have been carried out and try to work out how many have been killed and how many have been kidnapped but you can’t because in some cases the remains are unidentifiable. Before you can even gather yourself to rescue your people, the international voices are supporting your attackers while piling hate and disbelief on your protests. It’s your fault the terrorists attacked. It’s your fault your children were murdered. It’s your fault your women were raped. You’re breaking international law by engaging your attackers. Everything you’ve said about the terrorists turns out to be true but instead of backing you, the world demands more evidence and continues to demand a ceasefire knowing fine well that the terrorists won’t stick to it and if you out down your guns you will be killed. You’ve somehow become responsible for the civilians on the other side of the war you didn’t start. Every death is amplified and used as a stick to berate you with, even though the terrorists still have your people as hostages, the fact that their release would result in an immediate end to (your) hostilities is ignored.

You’re fighting a war with little to no international support. Your adversary has publicly said the attack was a rehearsal and they’ll do it again. They’ve enmeshed themselves in the civilian population who they use as shields so you have no option but to destroy buildings in civilian areas. You issue warnings and tell the people where you’re going to fire (what other war did one side tell the people they were trying to destroy when and where they would attacks?!). The world does not listen to what happened to your people. Most of the victims have died and those who haven’t are too traumatised to bear witness. Your entire country is traumatised. In amongst all of that you have to conduct 1200 forensic investigations. No-one should experience what was done to the victims. I can only surmise that what those investigators witnessed was truly unimaginable. Nobody should be capable of imagining what was perpetrated on those people.

So, in that framework, yes, evidence will have been missed. In an ideal world it wouldn’t be, but we’re no longer living in an ideal world. Hamas destroyed that on 7 October. Ideally, all those who committed the violence, sexual or otherwise, would be brought to trial with documented evidence that would secure their convictions. I honestly don’t think they deserve a trial. I have a legal background, would describe myself as a middle of the road liberal who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and who thinks death penalty is abhorrent. Those bastards deserve no consideration and should be summarily eliminated.

I can’t even waste energy being disgusted with the ICRC and the UN.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 20:10

@Lolapusht well said.

turbonerd · 04/12/2023 20:23

Lolapusht · 04/12/2023 20:07

I think that part of why evidence hadn’t been collated was that the attack was just so overwhelming. 000s of terrorists attack your country. They torture, rape, kill and kidnap men, women and children effectively starting a war against you. You’re immediately on the defensive against an opponent you thought you knew, but it soon becomes apparent just how murderous they actually are. You see what atrocities have been carried out and try to work out how many have been killed and how many have been kidnapped but you can’t because in some cases the remains are unidentifiable. Before you can even gather yourself to rescue your people, the international voices are supporting your attackers while piling hate and disbelief on your protests. It’s your fault the terrorists attacked. It’s your fault your children were murdered. It’s your fault your women were raped. You’re breaking international law by engaging your attackers. Everything you’ve said about the terrorists turns out to be true but instead of backing you, the world demands more evidence and continues to demand a ceasefire knowing fine well that the terrorists won’t stick to it and if you out down your guns you will be killed. You’ve somehow become responsible for the civilians on the other side of the war you didn’t start. Every death is amplified and used as a stick to berate you with, even though the terrorists still have your people as hostages, the fact that their release would result in an immediate end to (your) hostilities is ignored.

You’re fighting a war with little to no international support. Your adversary has publicly said the attack was a rehearsal and they’ll do it again. They’ve enmeshed themselves in the civilian population who they use as shields so you have no option but to destroy buildings in civilian areas. You issue warnings and tell the people where you’re going to fire (what other war did one side tell the people they were trying to destroy when and where they would attacks?!). The world does not listen to what happened to your people. Most of the victims have died and those who haven’t are too traumatised to bear witness. Your entire country is traumatised. In amongst all of that you have to conduct 1200 forensic investigations. No-one should experience what was done to the victims. I can only surmise that what those investigators witnessed was truly unimaginable. Nobody should be capable of imagining what was perpetrated on those people.

So, in that framework, yes, evidence will have been missed. In an ideal world it wouldn’t be, but we’re no longer living in an ideal world. Hamas destroyed that on 7 October. Ideally, all those who committed the violence, sexual or otherwise, would be brought to trial with documented evidence that would secure their convictions. I honestly don’t think they deserve a trial. I have a legal background, would describe myself as a middle of the road liberal who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and who thinks death penalty is abhorrent. Those bastards deserve no consideration and should be summarily eliminated.

I can’t even waste energy being disgusted with the ICRC and the UN.

You put my thoughts into words much better than I could.
Thank you.

thatsthewayitis · 04/12/2023 20:28

@Lolapusht thank you, you said it better than ever I could.

Fantasyanswer · 04/12/2023 20:51

Everything at @Lolapusht said.

Extremely well summarized.

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