Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

https://thegatewayonline.ca/2023/11/breaking-u-of-a-releases-statement-director-of-uasac-let-go-after-signing-open-letter/

Head of University's Sexual Assault Centre, whose motto is 'we believe you' is sacked after signing an open letter calling the Hamas sexul assauls 'unverified' accusations.

Thanks for the links re the UN.

I'm not enjoying losing faith in something I had thought was an inevitably flawed but fundamentally Good Thing. But when it becomes that skewed and biased it risks doing far more harm than good.

We saw that in action with Victor Madrigal Borloz, pushing his partisan narrative. I'd hoped that he was an outlier.

It would be easy to despair, reading this thread.
@deepbluebell I don’t know how you keep your wisdom and generosity of outlook.

I wonder whether people want an easy answer that insulates them against that despair? It’s easier to pick a side and shout, than to dwell thoughtfully in the complexity.

Fear of there not being a solution, perhaps?
I was involved in a line of work where we ended up aiming for the ‘least worst’ outcome. The best wasn’t available, and mediocre was optimistic. We ended up aiming to avoid disaster rather than anything better. Think, keeping kids out of prison, rather than helping them get decent A levels.
it was hard to work tirelessly without hope of anything other than avoiding disaster. It’s a scary place to hang out, where the best options are still awful.

Perhaps people put their heads in the clouds and enthusiastically support a side, so they don’t have to recognise the reality of a least worst situation.

I'm not Jewish but I've been following this whole sad story for a good forty years - since I was a teenager. The UN is so far from impartial that it blows my mind, even now, even given what I have seen happen over the years.

Not at all to derail but just to mention only (on the disappointment at the UN, a feeling I share) that there have been concerns about the UN and their response to sex, sexual abuse, sex education.

Where did PIE go? WHO and UNESCO new guidance has routes in Queer Theory, Sex Positivity and believes children are "sexual from birth"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4796258-where-did-pie-go-who-and-unesco-new-guidance-has-routes-in-queer-theory-sex-positivity-and-believes-children-are-sexual-from-birth

Yes. No respect for UN any more.

The UN are not the authority we would like to think they are.

It is very sad because what is very much needed now is an impartial UN

From Israel point of view no matter what they do they know the UN and some other organisations will condemn them. So frankly any real concerns about their mission will likely be ignored. The UN were going to slam them anyway.

On world childrens day the UN mentioned various individual suffering of children around the world but not the children that died in the pogrom or the child hostages in Gaza. That is just is beyond imaginable.

Does anyone have an idea what is going on in the UN? who is pulling strings, what the underlying motive is?

I'm imagining it is something to do with Russia or China? that if Israel get stable in the middle east it will be beneficial to USA?

the pro-paedophilia, pro-gendermadness all seems to fit in with destabilising the West

Actually the IRA also became a criminal mafia which did indeed terrorise its own population as well as get involved with organised international crime. Gun running. Drug smuggling.

Yes, even after Kuwait expelled 400,000 Palestinians in 1991, the UN barely gave any mention to it; instead they focused on Israel having expelled 4 Palestinians. Yasser Arrafat had said what happend in Kuwait far exceeded anything that had happened to the peoples of Palestine, by Israel.

Whether by design or just accidentally, I think you're right here.

No 'everyone' is NOT bloody 'welcome to be who you really are' in a school. Paedophiles are not, that's the whole point of DBS checks and safer recruitment and all of the procedures in place to stop child abuse! It's not bigotry to have some kind of filter on who can work with children nor on what they can do in that role.

I often find myself listening to conservative religious commentators saying things like 'the West has no moral compass, they are morally bankrupt' and I think of what's been allowed to happen in schools plus all the vacuous virtue signalling with no critical thought at all applied and I have to admit I feel they have a point sometimes. I certainly can understand their point of view and why they might think that.

I feel like the values of freedom and respecting different beliefs, of pluralism I suppose, seem to have been lost, particularly if you're a woman.

Thankyou for this thread Arabella and all contributors. It is sad, wise and compassionate.

Three things about this whole event have particularly struck me.

Firstly how almost everyone commenting (talking members of the public here) has expressed huge sympathy with one or other side, but completely refused to mention the harm done to the others. Thankyou that this is not the case here.

Secondly, how in the news reports, Hamas slides between terrorist organisation and governing body - Hamas (govt) says Gaza is running out of fuel, but Hamas (fighters) won’t provide the food/fuel/water they have stockpiled to civilians; Hamas (gov) declares how many people have been killed by bombs, while Hamas (fighters) intentionally hold civilians in areas threatened by bombing…..

Thirdly, how under-reported the sexual violence has been. These things are of course deeply uncomfortable, but they have to be acknowledged, otherwise idiots like those from Alberta University get to change the narrative of history. And yes, the UN is complicit

I wasn’t referring to an article
You posted a screenshot of the article saying you were correcting me by doing so.

Your post suggests that the Red Cross has seen and is seeing each hostage every other day.
That wasn’t me, another poster was sarcastically exaggerating my posts. I had said the comment that the Red Cross has had no access to any hostages during the conflict was not correct. They have had access to some hostages until the collapse of the health system, 11 days ago now, and the attacks on Red Cross workers made it too unsafe for them to access any hostages in Gaza. The article posted reflects the current situation as of few days go.

@deepbluebell
”I didn't want to call you out, but on a feminist board you appeared to really struggle to show empathy with raped Israelis, with mothers who are wild with anguish over their kidnapped daughters - because the Israeli government is awful and engaging in brutal warfare with Gaza. And you found it difficult that others wanted to hold space and empathy for a moment to discuss just that, without also bringing the 'crimes' of Israel and the pain of the women of Gaza into it. So I wonder if you would consider asking yourself why?”

I thought that this thread on Feminism. Rape. Israel was for all mothers who are wild with anguish over their kidnapped daughters. I disagree with you on your perception, but naturally you are in the midst of grieving and so perhaps missed my early post where I stated I marched for weeks in solidarity with Israel after Oct 7th before even thinking about Gaza. That is why I was shocked at posters saying in the U.K. marchers were abandoning sympathy for Israel on the 8th! My country, the earliest march for Gaza was Oct 23rd. I haven’t been to any ProPalestine marches, but my personal concerns/worry for Gaza started when it got to some 3,000 children killed.

But, now we are well into November, on a thread that is Feminism. Rape. Israel. The moment to focus on Oct 7th needs to make space to include Oct 8th-31st and Nov 1-21st too. It’s time for MeToo for all daughters in Israel.

Yes, I found it difficult because some of the Hamas victims and hostages are neither Jewish nor Israeli- some are Israeli Arab Christian or Bedouin Muslim women, some are Bhuddist Thai farm workers. Some mothers are no longer frantic with worry, their daughter’s body has been found and they have buried her never knowing what their daughter’s final days were like, what she suffered. But this isn’t to be talked about either?

I also found it difficult because some Jewish and Israeli Arab daughters in Israel are de facto hostages of the IDF and they also have mothers frantic with worry.

Feminism. Rape. Israel. Is this a #metoo thread for all women in Israel?

@BabaBarrio OK

If women who suffer are referred to as daughters, is this done because their suffering is bad because it worries other people whose daughters they are?

Or are women valuable simply because they're human beings and so we can refer to them as women because we care about their suffering even if they have no family at all?

The article isn’t wrong the “yeah BUT” is so common when it comes to crimes against Jewish people.
as for the head of that universities sexual assault clinic, shame on her, and glad she was fired, we believe you motto? What a joke.

I haven't commented so far as there have been a number of recent threads about groups saying they are feminist or women's groups (eg feminist library, EVAW) that are willing to come out with any number of statements relating to Governments, etc., but rarely make statement about women (even the ones they say they represent).

So even given the atrocities of 7th October why would anyone think they would change their politics now? Even the unfunded women's peace groups haven't made statements other than generalised we should work for peace. (A bit off topic but even Women in Black whose main group is in Israel, but is a global movement in the UK has been transed. So much for 70s Women's Liberationists holding true to their values)

So as with the trans issue, as we know so many women's groups have been captured by male politics, why are we so unwilling to be part of / help form a women's group that does stand up for women in the way we are happy to say online is the correct way, but in an IRL reality.

....

Also just to say it is alarming the willingness of posters to find articles or videos or whatever that match their view in relation to Israel and Palestine and assume it proves the point of view they already have.

Are you aware that over 400 journalists from various westerns newspaper and tv news channels are saying they are being censored and cant report openly. Funnily enoughnot widely report by the media.

This isn't because I have a side, but clearly the news we are getting in dribs and drabs has gone through some vetting process. I have no idea why this is happening. Whether it is Government interference, or the owners of new papers / channels hedging their bets for commercial reasons. Or ..... ???

....

And dont forget there isn't a unified voice from the hostage families (which I am not saying they should have) eg yesterday's spectable of hostage families shouting at members of the current Israeli Government for prioritising military action over negotiating the release of hostages. While other familes support the military action.

We also dont know whether hostage families have asked that writing or reporting about the women who were raped and humiliated are not constantly in the media out of respect for those women.

But as we are all at the mercy of the mainstream media (random "facts" on social media mean nothing) what has happened (partly because tv news loves reporting war and destruction) the moment the Israeli's started their bombardment of urban areas of Gaza this became the daily spectacle we have all been subjected to.

And irrespective of whether you support that action, for most people all they see is civilians being bombed.

So without saying it would have worked imagine the difference if after the Hamas attack on 7th Israel had not responded with a bombardment, had tightened their border security and started negotions through whichever Gulf state for the release of the hostages. Every news channel would then have had the fate of the hostages as the focus of their reporting.

And as others have said Hamas is no more representative of Palestinians than Netanyahu is of Israelis, or the Ayatollah of Iranians, or Trump of Americans.

...

So is there anyone on this thread who thinks they could do better as a women's group and make an appropriate response to what has happened, is still happening and what will happen in the future.

That is something I didn't know, thank you

How about
'Hamas are committing war crimes by raping unarmed women and taking scores of Israelis and others as hostages. No grievance can justify holding anyone hostage particularly babies and children. The groups should immediately and safely release all civilians detained.

As Feminists we condemn the use of rape as a weapon without exception and call for the perpetrators of these atrocities to be held to account.

A couple of recent polls on Palestinian attitudes, with conflicting results. The first poll was from before the attack.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.”

...

In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

A total of 75% of respondents agreed with the October 7 attack and 74.7% agreed that they support a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”

...

Palestinians living in the West Bank overwhelmingly answered that they supported the attack to either an extreme or “somewhat” extent (83.1%.) Only 6.9% answered that they were “extremely” or “somewhat” against the attack, and 8.4% expressed that they had no opinion either way.

Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip show a little less consensus but the overall majority supported the attack. A mass of 63.6% said that they supported the attack “extremely” or to a “somewhat” extent. A further 14.4% answered that they did not oppose or support the attack. Showing a greater rift than that of the West Bank, 20.9% of Palestinians living in Gaza opposed the attack to some degree.