Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

"I can tell a mile off people who are not holding peace and compassion in their hearts. People who think of this as a sick team sport.

In my world it is more common for me to encounter people who can barely bring themselves to mutter a few words for the Israeli rape victims (and there have been a few on this board, you know who you are and please, please don't get your back up, just reflect on this for a moment)."

@BabaBarrio
I wrote this yesterday, and I mean this well - but you have been an example of this behaviour. Rather than investing energy into proving that you are right on every post, could you consider reflecting on this?

I know it is difficult, I find it difficult too. People feel passionately about this conflict and are driven to cling onto the rightness of their position. With a dearly loved, young family member set on fire by Hamas on 7 October you can imagine how triggering it is when I encounter people who claim that "it never happened and even if it did happen, it must have been a false flag operation because Israel lies." But, when I encounter people who are speaking in good faith, even if it makes me deeply uncomfortable, I will dwell on it - rather than lash out.

I didn't want to call you out, but on a feminist board you appeared to really struggle to show empathy with raped Israelis, with mothers who are wild with anguish over their kidnapped daughters - because the Israeli government is awful and engaging in brutal warfare with Gaza. And you found it difficult that others wanted to hold space and empathy for a moment to discuss just that, without also bringing the 'crimes' of Israel and the pain of the women of Gaza into it.

So I wonder if you would consider asking yourself why?

I honestly want peace and a future for the people of Palestine and Israel. It means a lot because blood and tears that are also mine have been shed in this conflict. But there are so many people (with no skin in the game especially) who are making a lot of noise, arguing from intractable positions in bad faith. If you genuinely want peace in the region this way of engaging doesn't help - on the contrary, it makes it more difficult to achieve all around.

https://theintercept.com/2023/10/26/israel-palestine-feminism-ceasefire/

https://www.womenwagepeace.org.il/en/donate/
Women Wage Peace are exactly the type of organisation I wish had more global support.

In 2018, reports emerged that the regime had actually turned to Israel for support in repressing an insurgency in Sinai, and Israel responded by conducting airstrikes in Sinai against the insurgents.

Why do you think Egypt did not make way for an independent Palestinian state in Gaza when it had control?

https://theconversation.com/how-women-in-israel-and-palestine-are-pushing-for-peace-together-215783

I think it should be borne in mind that strong criticism of Israel isn't the same thing as a support for Hamas.

I understand your comparison with freedom fighters/terrorists depending on where you're standing. I confess to not knowing in detail the methods of those in resistance to South African apartheid, the IRA obviously murdered, kidnapped and bombed but I don't think anything on the level of what Hamas did?

The comparison that springs to mind is the Freetown Massacre in Sierra Leone in terms of sickening depravity. Peace was achieved there, I guess....but it also came with justice. Can you see those in Hamas responsible for the terrible attacks being held to justice?

The ANC committed horrific terrorist atrocities. Look into Winnie Mandela and necklacing, if you are feeling robust.

Edit - I don't think the official ANC line supported necklacing, but Winnie Mandela appeared to endorse it.

Egypt only recaptured a small portion of the Sinai in 1973, and the majority of it was returned to Egypt in stages as part of the peace deal signed between Israel and Egypt (Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin) in the late 70s and early 80s. Genuinely, there is no credible appetite in Israel to retake the Sinai.

I recall Winnie Mandela was targeting other (black) ANC members for the necklacing and it was about control and money / drugs IIRC.

So not terrorism, per se, more straight up murder and ‘gangsterism’

An awful lot like the IRA (and ‘loyalist’ activities) in NI if they were being honest about it, rather than pretending they were valiant freedom fighters ridding the land of the British invaders (or fighting to keep them there).

The IRA/PIRA ran (and run) extortion rackets, run rigged gambling machines, supply drugs and weren’t (and aren’t) above protecting their members from little things like torturing those who won’t cooperate, or from facing justice for raping fellow catholics. A favourite for ensuring local compliance is to use an electric drill on both kneecaps, using an angle grinder to cut off the drill bits once they’re lodged in place.

Fucking freedom fighters my arse. Shouldn’t matter which “side of the fence” you’re on.

The ANC did commit horrific terrorist atrocities.
But it is not right to see their actions in a vacuum, we need to look at the actions of The National Party. As a Humanist I don’t think violence is right but it is naive to ignore South Africa’s history of oppression.

I think people rather than looking into Winnie Mandela should instead focus on looking into the work of the Black Sash and the positive things these women were trying to achieve or the work of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission - moving forward - recognising wrongs.

I think definitely the PLO (or maybe even Hamas in the early days) could have been be comparable to the IRA or ANC. It's not a comfortable comparison, but OK. However, the Hamas of today repress and brutalise their own people as much as they do their enemies. The IRA and ANC were not trying to rule their own people as totalitarian, oppressive regimes. So I don't think it's a good comparison.

Actually, it appears that I don't know enough about the IRA or ANC to say! I just know that if 'freedom fighters' torture and murder their own citizens, they are not the sort of freedom fighters that I could support.

PaterPower's post is spot on about terrorists using the cover of 'freedom fighters' to commit horrific atrocities.

https://jewishinsider.com/2023/11/israeli-police-women-rape-sexual-violence-hamas-october-7/

I'm not sure if this was posted already. It goes into a lot more detail than the OP's original article (including graphic descriptions).

The most shocking-but-not-surprising bit was the revelation that direct reports of what happened to UN agencies were not even acknowledged.

gods those poor women and children...
women's orgs are useless
they didn't even stand up against the transactivists
So why am I shocked that they abandoned Jews

As bad as it is that so many feminist organisations have failed to speak about the rapes, murders and kidnaps of Israeli women, the failures of the UN seem a degree worse. That is really hugely concerning.

It is Israel they do this all the time. Most Jewish people are not in the least bit surprised. If you just look at who is on the human rights committees or some other UN groups you end up doing a double take.

It was around the same time as people protesting in Iran because they didn't want forced hijab I think

https://unwatch.org/iran-to-chair-un-human-rights-forum-on-thursday-sparking-protests/

Yep - Jews already know about the UN.

Watch this from them on Monday 9 October if you want to see gaslighting and disrespect in action. A statement and moment of silence for 75 years of occupation of the Palestinian people, (with mention of Afgani victims of the earthquake), but not a word on the atrocities in Israel even as bodies were still warm. (remember that Israel had not started the campaign of retaliation at this point).

x.com/un_hrc/status/1711426746036244847?s=46&t=TB4EYs5rzJ6WB5dXCjTvLA

The UN is a disgrace.I really fear for the future.
unwatch.org/u-n-singles-out-israel-for-violating-womens-rights/

Libya, Qatar, and Zimbabwe were among members of the UN’s 54-nation Economic and Social Council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted on July 26th to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights.
In a resolution adopted 37 to 6, with 4 abstentions (see breakdown below), the Jewish state was accused of being a “major obstacle” for Palestinian women “with regard to the fulfilment of their rights, and their advancement, self-reliance and integration in the development of their society.”

Britain and the United States both took the floor to denounce the resolution’s selectivity. “We oppose the singling out and disproportionate focus on Israel in this resolution,” the British delegate.
“We remain troubled by this body’s insistence on including political elements and one-sided condemnations that detract from the real challenges at hand,” the American representative.

Libya, Qatar, and Zimbabwe were among members of the UN’s 54-nation Economic and Social Council, a principal organ of the world body, who voted on July 26th to single out Israel as the only country in the world to be rebuked by the council this year for allegedly violating women’s rights.

Well, they're just taking the piss with this.

Especially since Iran's appointment as Chair of that Human Rights group was only a few months after Mahsa Amini was murdered due to wearing her headscarf incorrectly.

The UN is so anti-women that I almost wish the US would just pull out of it, which would almost certainly cause its collapse as I can't see anyone being keen on plugging the gap of US funding.

This is an interesting graph. Think about everything you know about some of the other countries on it

If they were not immoral and bias wouldn't some of those other countries have more condemnation against them too

@deepbluebell thank you for your post upthread. This part in particular...

I honestly want peace and a future for the people of Palestine and Israel. It means a lot because blood and tears that are also mine have been shed in this conflict. But there are so many people (with no skin in the game especially) who are making a lot of noise, arguing from intractable positions in bad faith. If you genuinely want peace in the region this way of engaging doesn't help - on the contrary, it makes it more difficult to achieve all around

You are absolutely right. I'm not sure I could be this generous in your situation, it is particularly sobering that you can be and stands in stark contrast to so many clueless westerners protesting.

Those people saying they care about Palestinian civilians - well if that's true then ignoring the suffering of Israeli civilians will only make the Gaza situation worse. The only way peace is achieved is if the divisive rhetoric, the whataboutery and the one upmanship the 'well this many people died on this side' 'oh but this many on this side' as if it's some sick game STOPS.

Ultimately it's only compassion for both sides that will bring peace. Not competition and desire for revenge. The lives of Palestinian civilians in Gaza are inextricably linked at this point to the civilians living in Israel. Only by recognising the suffering of both sides can anyone hope to make any progress that reduces or ends the killings and destruction (on both sides).

But as I said before, I think a lot of westerners protesting are doing so to virtue signal and show devotion to their tribe/ideology rather than because they really care about Palestinians.

@pronounsbundlebundle

Indeed.