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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miriam Margoyles on pronouns

158 replies

ArthurbellaScott · 12/11/2023 15:27

'Whatever they want me to say, I'll say it'

Noting Boy George is on the seat with her. A man convicted for false imprisonment and torture.

How Miriam Margolyes Became A Trans Ally | The Graham Norton Show

Miriam Margolyes shares how she changed her mind and learned that respecting people and making them feel accepted is important in life. #GrahamNortonShow #Gr...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXMfSnk06L0

OP posts:
SidewaysOtter · 12/11/2023 18:32

If elderly rich successful women can’t retain freedom of speech who can?

Quite. JKR only fulfils two of those criteria (as she’s certainly not elderly!) and she has managed to retain a spine.

Icedlatteplease · 12/11/2023 18:34

Maddy70 · 12/11/2023 15:58

I agree with her. Whatever makes the person whose company I am in comfortable. I'll call them that.

It's fine until you call the quite obvious male "him" by mistake and "she" gets proper uppity even when you immediately apologise.

I thought the whole humour them thing was harmless until in my tired sleepless due illess self did this it the hobby I go to relax and a got a proper mouthful.

Thing is that really just emphasises how male they are.

ArthurbellaScott · 12/11/2023 18:46

PammieDooveOrangeJoof · 12/11/2023 16:21

I saw another thread about this and Miriam was being called out for actually mis gendering the person she is talking about in the clip, so she got it wrong anyway.

Oh, my days.

OP posts:
MouseMinge · 12/11/2023 18:52

My guess is that Miriam isn't that rich so she has to be more careful than she'd like or has been told to be more careful than she'd like. It seems odd though as she gives the impression that she has no fucks to give about anything. Clearly, she does. JKR is in a nearly unique position of really not having to give a fuck when idiots try to cancel her, which never works anyway, and I value what she does to make life better for those who are not in that position and have to toe the line or lose their livelihood. And therein lies the rub. People have lost their livelihoods for not wanting to lie about reality. Those who do want us to lie are in no danger of being "cancelled". That tells me a lot about where we currently are.

FinallyFinalGirl · 12/11/2023 18:59

"Telling the truth" in a normal day to day situation to the extent that it unnecessarily causes upset when it doesn't need to doesn't give you integrity.

If the truth causes them to be upset, then I suggest they seek professional mental health support and leave the rest of us alone.

And how upset do you think it makes the women and girls feel, who suffer for ACTUALLY being female, when people pretend privileged men are the same as them?

donquixotedelamancha · 12/11/2023 19:14

Miriam Margoyles is an idiot. She's always jumped on whatever cause is fashionable and spouted whatever the first thought in her head is. She's quite happy to be rude to other people when it suits her.

Sometimes that might make her look direct and down to earth but if you pay attention to her output for any length of time you'll realise she's merely vapid and arrogant.

TheLonelyStarbucksLovers · 12/11/2023 19:22

I'm a "Dr" I never use that as I think it's massively pretentious, but lots of my peers do, are they wrong to use that?

It's called being polite. In company, you should always try to make the people you are with comfortable. Who cares what they like to be referred as. Just be nice and civilised

Excellent- I didn’t realise it was so easy! I haven’t got a doctorate and have no plans to get one. So it’s good to know I can just tell people I identify as a doctor and they have to call me that as it’s ‘nice and civilised’.

See - that would be ridiculous wouldn’t it…

FlirtsWithRhinos · 12/11/2023 19:23

allhellcantstopusnow · 12/11/2023 18:20

@FlirtsWithRhinos

The thread is about what Margolyes said, and on a day to day, meeting people and just going about our business way, she said it doesn't matter, and I agreed.

It doesn't matter where my line is, it's clearly not where yours is; I'm just being less argumentative about it.

Saying we are only talking about one little change does not absolve you from responsibility for where the path you have taken that first step on is leading.

I hope, wherever your line is, when we get to it you will have the integrity to stand up. Because I can tell you one thing for certain - the further society goes in accepting some men are really women, the harder it will be to draw a line that finally says "but they are not women here".

Each step down the path will seem like a reasonable small adjustment from the last. Little by little, we walk into accepting scenarios that we would never have considered reasonable if we'd been asked to take them in one go.

So if your blood pressure won't cope with standing against pronouns today, how do you think it will be different when your line finally comes? Will you hold your line, or when the time comes will you think "well, it's not such a big thing really compared to how hurtful it would be to say no" and you'll move your line a little bit further away?

Truthlikeness · 12/11/2023 19:25

Icedlatteplease · 12/11/2023 18:34

It's fine until you call the quite obvious male "him" by mistake and "she" gets proper uppity even when you immediately apologise.

I thought the whole humour them thing was harmless until in my tired sleepless due illess self did this it the hobby I go to relax and a got a proper mouthful.

Thing is that really just emphasises how male they are.

I once described to a friend how the unexpected presence of a transwoman in a contact sport I participated in destroyed all fairness and put people at physical risk and she was mostly concerned that I used 'he' instead of 'she' when relating what had happened. The person was not there, completely unknown to her and they would never meet.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 12/11/2023 19:26

Maddy70 · 12/11/2023 16:13

No but the principle is the same

No it isn’t. One is about how a person wishes to be addressed (which is obviously polite to conform to) and the other is about demanding to be referred to and to be seen as something that is contrary to physical visual evidence.

DisingenuousBatshittery · 12/11/2023 19:37

Margoyles is a very polite woman. So polite, that - as she told Lous Theroux on his podcast - she once stopped to wank off a soldier in a tree in a park, despite being lesbian herself, as he was struggling to finish.

I would imagine if you're so #bekind you'd give a strange man a hand job, calling him she/her isn't much of a stretch.

UnremarkableBeasts · 12/11/2023 19:40

Personally, I simply don’t care what pronouns people use when they’re talking about me. And I don’t get to insist that they are kind, complimentary and positive in how they talk about me either.

If someone says to a friend ‘god Unremarkable is an absolute shit, isn’t s/he?’, they’re entitled to. Which pronoun they used makes no difference to any of it.

Generally it’s not that polite to talk about people in front of them. People would generally be addressing me directly - using my name or you. Or you’d say something like ‘I think Unremarkable has the salt’ rather than ‘I think she has the salt’. Because the latter isn’t all that polite polite. (Obviously there are polite ways to be using third person pronouns with the person they refer to there too - but it’s really not the massive deal that people make about it if someone refers to you as ‘he’).

My toddler is in an everyone/everything is ‘he’ phase of learning pronouns. So I’m frequently ‘misgendered’ in an adorable manner.

ArthurbellaScott · 12/11/2023 19:43

DisingenuousBatshittery · 12/11/2023 19:37

Margoyles is a very polite woman. So polite, that - as she told Lous Theroux on his podcast - she once stopped to wank off a soldier in a tree in a park, despite being lesbian herself, as he was struggling to finish.

I would imagine if you're so #bekind you'd give a strange man a hand job, calling him she/her isn't much of a stretch.

She fucking what, now?

OP posts:
UnremarkableBeasts · 12/11/2023 19:49

ArthurbellaScott · 12/11/2023 19:43

She fucking what, now?

I second this question.

SirChenjins · 12/11/2023 20:00

ArthurbellaScott · 12/11/2023 19:43

She fucking what, now?

Yep - well known story from her. She comes out with such utter shite - no idea why she’s feted as much as she is.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/11/2023 20:02

allhellcantstopusnow · 12/11/2023 18:16

Nothing. I can just think you're being needlessly awkward just as you think I'm being needlessly pandering.

The world continues to turn, and we can all have a slightly lower blood pressure.

In that case, what do you think about incarcerated women being punished for not using preferred pronouns about male, trans-identifying prisoners?

The following is a copy of an article by Dr Kate Coleman, Director of Keep Prisons Single Sex, published in October 2021. It is still an ongoing issue, and in fact I made another thread just today, about the newest known incident of a woman in prison being disciplined.

article

Over the summer, I had lunch with a female former offender, who had recently been released from prison. During her sentence, she had moved around the female estate and had been housed in several different women’s prisons. One of the things we talked about was her experience of being held with male prisoners who identify as transgender. For those who don’t know, male prisoners have been held in women’s prisons in England and Wales since at least the early 1980s.

Although the criteria that permit this have changed over the years, the common factor permitting this is that these male prisoners identify as women. Another common factor is that the legitimate needs of women in prison to single-sex spaces for what should be obvious reasons of privacy, dignity and safety have been repeatedly and consistently minimised and ignored. I wanted to ask her what it was like being a woman held in prisons that are mixed-sex.

I’ve been ‘doing’ prisons for a while now and although much of what she told me was not a surprise, it was still shocking and upsetting. She told me about the sexual assaults she had both experienced and witnessed. She reported that sexually aggressive and physically threatening behaviour is run-of-the-mill and simply to be expected.

She said that all bar one of the male prisoners she had encountered, who were so much bigger and stronger than she, had been convicted of sexual offences. She told me that almost all retained their male genitalia: she knew that they did because they often liked to show them off, either by wearing tight clothing or by moving the shower curtain to one side when showering.

I knew this already, but it’s different hearing it first hand from a woman sitting across the table from you. Words on a page or numbers and percentages in a report are no substitute for hearing a woman describe what has happened to her and what she has witnessed happen to others. However, what shocked me the most was when she told me in a completely matter-of-fact voice, we have to call them ‘she’ and use their female names and if we don’t we get a punishment. Even the ones who are sexual offenders?! Yes. Even the ones who show off their penises in the shower with you?! Yes. If we don’t we get a punishment.

I am firmly of the opinion that the policy and practice of housing male prisoners who identify as transgender alongside women constitutes an unofficial punishment directed against female offenders and only against female offenders: whilst male prisoners who fulfil the necessary criteria are housed alongside women, no female prisoner who identifies as transgender is ever held in the male estate. Somehow when making decisions about who is allowed in men’s prisons, the prison service can see that sex is immutable and matters. In prison as in the outside world, men get to keep their single-sex spaces. It’s women’s spaces that become mixed sex.

Being held in a mixed sex institution is not a normal consequence of lawful detention. Neither is facing an increased risk of both sexual assault and sexual assault by a male. Nor is the psychological and emotional harm inflicted upon female offenders when they are housed with males. Throughout the criminal justice system, women in prison are recognised as being traumatised, vulnerable and are often the victims of far more serious, usually violent or sexual, offences than those they have been convicted of. This unofficial punishment has another dimension and a particularly sinister one at that. The punishment of compelled and coerced speech. The punishment of indoctrination.

I’m sure some will counter that if you are in prison you don’t get to complain. We all know the saying, if you can’t do the time, then don’t do the crime. To this I say, it is imprisonment, the deprivation of liberty, the removal from society, the loss of time that is the punishment. Imprisonment is not a means to enable a punishment to be inflicted. Convicted offenders who receive a custodial sentence are sent to prison as punishment, nor for punishment.

This process of indoctrination – and it is indoctrination: you are required to only speak approved words to describe a reality that conforms to an approved ideology – robs women in prison of their language, their concepts, their experiences. It is a particular cruelty to women in prison. The data consistently report that female offenders have experienced high rates of violence and sexual assault at the hands of men, often since childhood. Women in prison know all too well who is a man, who is male and which of the two sexes presents the greater risk. However, the male prisoner, the man, becomes the risk that cannot, must not, be identified.

The woman I met told me that female offenders generally don’t complain because there’s simply no point. If a woman did make a complaint about the actions of a male prisoner, she would have to use female pronouns and that prisoner’s chosen female name. But it wasn’t a woman who was aggressive to her, or threatened her, or assaulted her, or showed her his penis. It just wasn’t. It was an adult human male: it was a man. The language she is compelled to use means she is forced to describe an incident that involved a woman. She is forced to agree that this prisoner is a woman, is female.

This is not just the denial of freedom of speech. This is compelled speech. This is forcing women to affirm an ideology. If we don’t we get a punishment.
Since my lunch with the female former offender, the Ministry of Justice has confirmed that women in prison are expected to use ‘correct’ pronouns and may be punished for refusing to comply. In a reply to a written question asked by Lord Philip Hunt, Lord Wolfson explained that it is only where a woman makes ‘an honest mistake’ in using ‘incorrect pronouns’ that she can be assured that she will not suffer a penalty. An ‘honest mistake’? What about an intentional choice of language to refer to the adult human male she sees before her? What about a refusal to affirm gender identity ideology? Post Forstater, gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act (2010) and have been deemed ‘worthy of respect in a democratic society’. What protection does this give the woman in prison?

Many who consider preferred pronouns to be a matter of courtesy and a kindness still draw a line in the sand and decline to use these to refer to a male who has been convicted of violent and sexual offences. Particularly if the very ability to commit these offences is intrinsically tied to the biological fact of being male. But pronouns are not prizes nor are they rewards for ‘good behaviour’. They are neutral with no value-judgement attached. Womanhood is not an honorarium to be bestowed on those males who are somehow ‘deserving’. Pronouns just are and womanhood just is.

It may not surprise you to learn that I won’t use preferred pronouns. Nor will I use the term ‘transwoman’ (nor any of the current variants). My reasons for this are informed by the requirements for safeguarding and my refusal to endorse gender identity ideology, even whilst expressing disagreement. Material reality matters and I make the choice that my language shall be free of concepts belonging to an ideology with which I disagree.

Now I have another reason. I have freedom of expression, but women in prison don’t. In standing by my choice I honour the fact that I, unlike them, have that freedom to insist on reality and reject ideology.

If we don’t we get a punishment

TheABC · 12/11/2023 20:11

I am profoundly deaf and lip-read. It's bad enough following a normal conversation, without the constant curveballs of working out which him/her everyone is referring to. Or does my comfort (and communication) not count?

Froodwithatowel · 12/11/2023 20:22

DisingenuousBatshittery · 12/11/2023 19:37

Margoyles is a very polite woman. So polite, that - as she told Lous Theroux on his podcast - she once stopped to wank off a soldier in a tree in a park, despite being lesbian herself, as he was struggling to finish.

I would imagine if you're so #bekind you'd give a strange man a hand job, calling him she/her isn't much of a stretch.

.... and at this point 'be kind' can be decoded to it's actual meaning in this case of 'has a very serious problem with boundaries'.

WyrdyGrob · 12/11/2023 20:30

TheABC · 12/11/2023 20:11

I am profoundly deaf and lip-read. It's bad enough following a normal conversation, without the constant curveballs of working out which him/her everyone is referring to. Or does my comfort (and communication) not count?

That’s what gets me..

just how goppingly ableist this whole schtick is.

beeeee kind — and bollocks to you if you are deaf, blind or cognitively impaired

Catsanfan · 12/11/2023 20:34

TheABC · 12/11/2023 20:11

I am profoundly deaf and lip-read. It's bad enough following a normal conversation, without the constant curveballs of working out which him/her everyone is referring to. Or does my comfort (and communication) not count?

What a wonderfully good point, thank you for this

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 12/11/2023 22:36

I don’t own the third person pronouns that other people use when referring to me. The idea that these are ‘our pronouns’ or ‘my pronouns’ is one of the misleading things we have been fed. Actually, I’m going to call it what it is, a lie.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 12/11/2023 22:40

WyrdyGrob · 12/11/2023 20:30

That’s what gets me..

just how goppingly ableist this whole schtick is.

beeeee kind — and bollocks to you if you are deaf, blind or cognitively impaired

Yes. And ageist too - the longer someone has been using sex-based pronouns, the more cognitive dissonance using so called ‘preferred’ (read ‘demanded’) pronouns is likely to cause. A lot is said about the mental health of transgender people, and far less about the mental health of their parents (and spouses, partners, siblings and others).

nepeta · 12/11/2023 22:47

Does it matter, in a wider sense, if we use whatever pronouns someone tells us are the preferred ones for that person?

I believe it does. Even though the strong form of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is no longer widely believed, it is possible (though not necessarily true) that language affects our thought patterns. So calling a male person 'she/her' may have more consequences than the immediate kindness/validation effect (if there is one). It might make it more likely that using 'she/her' in that context reduces our ability to define the group previously seen as adult female human beings, or that at least it makes discussing the shared interests of that group is made much more cumbersome.

It always struck me how hard it was to 'see' certain things before we gave them names. Sexual harassment, as a theoretical concept explaining a vast range of behaviours is one of those. People knew the phenomenon itself, as in a collection of various separate incidents or anecdotes, but had no proper way of discussing it as a wider issue in the sense of the unifying thread in all those separate incidents, so it was harder to define it for, say, legal purposes at the workplace.

I have other examples from bilingual people pointing out how differently some things look to them inside one language than the other. Colours which are named as separate ones (such as 'pink') somehow feel different from colours which are the same but without a specific term for them (such as light red for pink, to match light blue for the corresponding colour for which we don't have a separate label in English).

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