Miriam Margoyles on pronouns

[ArthurbellaScott]

'Whatever they want me to say, I'll say it'

Noting Boy George is on the seat with her. A man convicted for false imprisonment and torture.

I would have thought that too until Dd started having seizures. Now all the gender neutral toilets are in vogue it means public life is very much more dangerous for my Dd. if she has a seizure behind a full height door, no one would know. So yes it is my hill now.

Should we call this woman 'Doctor'? Out of politeness?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/10/fraudster-posed-as-nhs-doctor-for-19-years-court-hears

How far does your willingness to make others feel comfortable extend at @Maddy70? If a white person wanted you to acknowledge they wereblack would you do that? If you were in company and a young girl felt very uncomfortable at pretending a man was a woman would you insist they did or would you ask the man to refrain from pushing the point? If someone you knew wasn’t a professor but insisted they were would you go along with their charade?

What you call someone (I prefer to use their name not a pronoun) is very different from where they can be or access.

Some people change their pronouns day to day Eddie or Suzy Izzard when they're in boy mode including some bloke who worked for credit suisse who sometimes (but not all the time) pretended to be a woman and won an award meant for women. If I'd met them on Monday as one gender and then as a different one on Wednesday, I'm not sure I could be bothered with that "what would you like me to call you today/tomorrow/next Thursday etc"

Pip Bunce?

@Maddy70 It would make me uncomfortable to refer to a man as 'she'. Why do his feelings matter more than mine?

I’m not sure calling someone what they feel comfortable with then sniggering about it behind their back is going to be acceptable.

That’s always the question isn’t it @Catsanfan

man - I want you to address me using female pronouns

woman - that is lying and makes me uncomfortable

man - how dare you make me uncomfortable? my comfort matters more than yours!!!

Oh, you’re one of those. Why is it pretentious to use a title that you’ve worked bloody hard to earn? I’m proud of mine, except when people like you come along making me feel as though I’m somehow wrong to use it…

Christ. If you need the validation of a couple of letters before your name to make you feel valued then go for it. I don't.

And when someone else asks you if that person is really a doctor, because they are asking to do something that is ok for doctors but not for everyone, what do you do then?

"Yes, of course they are a doctor if they say they are!"

"No, they aren't a doctor, we just let them call themselves one to be polite and keep them happy"

?

The people you're with will have no idea how you refer to them in their absence, so it shouldn't matter one iota.

I don't know guys... while I feel TRAs have taken things to a whole other level and caused a lot of issues such as the erosion of safe spaces for women and while biological sex has to be recognised for practical reasons..... if I am having a conversation with someone and they want to be referred to in a certain way, then what's wrong with just being kind?

That’s great. It must be wonderful to be you. So why go around making other people feel bad about it?

I will never understand why it’s always women who seem to be denigrated for wanting to use their hard earned title of doctor @QueenOfThorns

In my experience men don’t think twice about using it (and adding a ton of other “look at all the other institutions I belong too/qualifications I have” as well)

This is why with the pronouns

Thank you. I never thought twice about using it until I read similar posts to the one above on here. I will ignore the silly twits and use my proper title!

You should know by now that having any kind of neutral or positive leaning feelings on things like this will immediately result in bonkers, knee-jerk reactions like "should we call this doctor impersonating woman 'dr' out of politeness" rather than a measured response.

Thankfully, in real life people are by and large a bit more "live and let live", apart from a minority.

It's also unkind to expect people to tell lies and ignore their own feelings.

I saw Miriam Margolyes on her recent book tour/an audience with type of thing. She said she will call anyone what they want to be called but thinks its silliness to talk about men in women only spaces. She also spoke in support of JK Rowling, and took a stand against the host of the event (Josie Long) who was extremely insulting of Rowling.

The problem with referring to someone by their preferred pronouns is that the person is asking you to mis-sex them ie to lie and many of us dislike lying. My autism, for example, means that lying is difficult for me and that it makes me uncomfortable.

Lying about someone's sex also means validating the false idea that they are a member of the opposite sex and this in turn leads to their belief that they are justified in demanding to be treated like a member of the opposite sex.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

I’d just say see you next Thursday

Too scared of the repercussions if they don’t.

I would always refuse to lie and use the incorrect pronoun which is not based on biology. I just won’t do it.