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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 7

1000 replies

Kucinghitam · 05/11/2023 18:13

Continuation of Thread 6.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions in the supermarket, grr"- that sort of thing).

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 6 | Mumsnet

Continuation of [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4807817-womens-rights-general-conversations-thread-5? Thread 5]]. There is so much excel...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4861150-womens-rights-general-conversations-thread-6?

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164
BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 16/12/2023 12:52
The Incredible Melting Man Horror Movies GIF by absurdnoise

Ha.

SinnerBoy · 16/12/2023 12:56

Did he mention cauldrons, like he did last time he was on MN? The precious scrote.

angelico53 · 16/12/2023 13:44

Excellent post from twitter:

-----

When I studied for my PhD our type of feminism argued that we should move past essentialist explanations of gender. We rejected the notion that gender (which for us meant masculinities and femininities) was biological, fixed, innate, unchangeable, etc. or that gender mapped to sex in any unbending way.

We believed gender was socially constructed. Men need not be masculine, nor women feminine. It was what people tended to do but not the only way of doing it. Either could be anything in theory, but in practice, gender was mapped to sex, shaped by the cultural influences of the day, and policed through power, limiting the kinds of gender you could be, praising some types of masculinities, denigrating others, and the same with femininities.

Gender was a linguistic construction. Language, for us, also included other symbols, such as clothing, as these 'say something'. Language shapes our social reality and how we come to know ourselves and describe ourselves.

Queer theory was just coming online. It promised to show that sex was also socially constructed. It was terribly unscientific and never falsified sex as a binary. Disorders of sexual development were rare, and the sex, whether by chromosomes or gametes, is one of the most robust concepts in science, including in DSDs (and few queer people have these anyway, so some gerrymandering was going on there).

Over time, getting nowhere with saying 'sex could have been constructed differently', relativistic queer theory started using gender and sex interchangeably. One minute they'd be talking about masculinities and femininities, saying these could be shown to be different over time and place and therefore socially constructed rather than biological (correct). But you had to keep your wits about you. The next minute, as with conspiracy theorists, after getting your approval, they would move quickly and sneakily into using gender as now meaning 'sex'.

They'd get you buy-in on gender like a sneaky salespeople, and then say you'd agreed to a different product - sex as a social construction. Still getting nowhere, they moved to 'identities'. A male can identify as a woman. Big deal. Still no ontological status. Lots of people believe in untruths and lots of people are poor at self-appraisal. All transgender people know they are not the opposite sex.

Ideologues then tried to break in again (they are free to try every window because it's a linguistic and political, rather than scientific, project). If a man could identify as a woman, why not say he is a woman, be nice ('keep sweet and obey')? These pushy salespeople still push their dodgy wares in academia, using power to frame dissenters of their 'theory' as "transphobic" and other fancy made-up terms, like "cishet normative".

Such terms only mean something inside their own discursive sphere and neo-religion. They construct sin, reify it, and use words as weapons. They police those of us who refuse false premises such as 'males can be females', or that fake identities trump reality, or that personal declarations should always be recognised in law. Normative moral claims.

Like social constructionists, queer theorists had an irreverence for science and how it can be a political project. It certainly can be. But the scientific method already has this bias check built in.

They threw the baby out with the bathwater and ushered in relativism-as-realism, and in so doing, put billions of girls and women at risk, led to unfairness in sports, blokes in showers with girls in sports centres, men in rape shelters next to traumatised women, rapists in women's prisons, etc. Sex survived their attempted deconstruction.

They've had 30 years now. They unleashed all manner of harm in this time. These days, personal attacks are all that is left. This ideology is indefensible and crumbling.

https://twitter.com/NoCisgender/status/1735867366700183891

duc748 · 16/12/2023 13:47

My brane hurts.

Clabony · 16/12/2023 18:28

SqueakyDinosaur · 16/12/2023 12:29

I'm so happy! I've been blocked by RMW for saying that Michael Foran writes better than him. What a fucking snowflake.

Congratulations, a case of Tunnocks is on it's way to you.

To be fair, most of us write better than RMW.
Although Michael Foran is definitely better than RMW by a *gazillion miles.

*Legal technical term

Gonners · 16/12/2023 18:48

It's so much easier to write well when what you say is true and makes sense.

MouseMinge · 17/12/2023 00:04

Who is RMW? My poor brian won't come up with a name to attach to the letters.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 17/12/2023 00:10

Barrister who called us all witches.

SinnerBoy · 17/12/2023 00:16

I think the quote was:

I'll leave you to your cauldrons

before flouncing.

Boiledbeetle · 17/12/2023 01:11

SinnerBoy · 17/12/2023 00:16

I think the quote was:

I'll leave you to your cauldrons

before flouncing.

It was:

24/01/2023 17:49

It’s a paradox for me. Through my working life I have tried to treat everyone properly, equally and fairly, no matter what their protected characteristic.

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically.

A little bit of self-reflection and self-awareness goes a long way.

But I’m sure you will just keep stirring your cauldrons.

’Bye for now.

BezMills · 17/12/2023 02:01

But the worst of you here treat trans people just as you would complain about men treating women historically

Err... OK. Perhaps that sounded better in Robin's head than it reads off the page?

I am sure not taking Robin as seriously as Robin would like, is a terrible thing. For Robin. I am as sorry as possible for that.

SinnerBoy · 17/12/2023 02:08

Thank you, Beetle

MouseMinge · 17/12/2023 04:33

Oh Robin. He's a twat alright.

SinnerBoy · 17/12/2023 05:06

He's probably got alerts to let him know that MN horrors are saying mean things about him!

IcakethereforeIam · 17/12/2023 08:56

At least that quote acknowledged that trans people and women aren't the same.

Tallisker · 17/12/2023 12:00

Why was the murder trial thread deleted? Had a day off yesterday and missed stuff.

BezMills · 17/12/2023 14:31

The last bit I read had some attention seeking muppet poster repeatedly bringing iffy info from other sites and then being all "you guys are so square we are talking about this on other sites better than yows"

IcakethereforeIam · 17/12/2023 15:33

I don't know if this deserves a thread. It's about an American organisation (the SPLC) that's produced a report on, I presume, Americans who don't support gender ideology. I suspect they're lumping everyone of those together and calling them 'feminists' and 'gender critical', which I wouldn't do. Certainly not the Matt Walshes of the anti-GI side.

https://unherd.com/thepost/southern-poverty-law-center-condemns-feminists-as-white-supremacists/

It's Eliza Mondegreen for Unherd.

Lumping things together has worked well for tras, LGB with TQ and the rest of the keyboard and, I've been slow to notice, gender critical with fundamental Christians and the like.

It's a shame, like Stonewall, the SPLC once did good work.

Southern Poverty Law Center condemns feminists as white supremacists

This week, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) dropped a major investigation into “anti-LGBTQ+ pseudoscience”. Dubbed Project Captain, the report declares that the “network we identify supports and is supported by white Christian nationalist ideolog...

https://unherd.com/thepost/southern-poverty-law-center-condemns-feminists-as-white-supremacists

duc748 · 17/12/2023 16:14

It does strike me that one way or another, Caroline Lucas does seem to have me personally unaffected by the attention which is rightly being focused on the GP's batshit gender policies. Is she stepping down before the shit hits the fan?

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 17/12/2023 16:18

If she's got any sense, yes!

MouseMinge · 17/12/2023 20:04

She's stepping down at the next election to give more time to wider environmental concerns, which I can believe.

I was elated when I read he'd not got selected. The man was walking around in a bright pink mini skirt suit with large fake boobs, ffs. If a woman dressed like that on the election/selection trail they'd be ripped to shreds, but a middle aged white dude who thinks it's stylish to dress as a French hooker from the 60s? Point out that it's not appropriate attire for that sort of thing and you're a hateful Nazi bigot.

First Sheffield and now Brighton with pretty much the same speil (added trans, trans, trans for Brighton). I think his future in politics is over before it began. If he can't get Brighton who else will want him? Of course he could go back to boy mode again ...

The great thing about the secret ballot is no one gets cancelled for being true to themselves. Off you fuck Eddie.

duc748 · 17/12/2023 20:21

He can't have seriously expected that he'd be selected? Which, I suppose, makes it purely performative.

Gonners · 17/12/2023 20:26

duc748 · 17/12/2023 20:21

He can't have seriously expected that he'd be selected? Which, I suppose, makes it purely performative.

I'm not so sure about your first sentence there. He has always been quite vain, and may well have thought he was a shoo-in.

duc748 · 17/12/2023 20:38

Perhaps I'm naive enough to think that someone seeking public office should at least demonstrate that he takes it seriously, and it's not just an avenue for his vanity. Even in Brighton.

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