Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

We don't use "bathrooms" in public places in the UK, as we've mentioned on here several times.

Have you read the UK Equality Act yet and the details given to you showing that you're incorrect in your assertions? Or are we going to have to repeat those as well?

Trans men are being attacked by gender critical people too, even if they obey the rules imposed on them.

https://www.them.us/story/trans-man-noah-ruiz-was-just-trying-to-pee-he-was-assaulted-and-arrested

Can you answer the questions put to you please, DadJoke, instead of the constant obfuscation and misdirection? It doesn't help your argument. It makes you look like a gaslighter who can't read or answer basic questions.

Trespassing is not a RIGHT.

We know that some transgender people use opposite sex single sex facilities. The bit we are disputing is that they have a legal right to do so.

In the U.K. they do not.

You can’t take a non-existent ‘right’ away, but you can enforce an existing right (that female people are entitled to a limited number of penis-people free spaces and competitions under the current law).

Why are you so keen on denying female people their legal
rights, Dadjoke?

Violent men who assault female people are not Gender Critical.

What does this story have to do with gender critical feminists?

Do you know who any of the attackers were? Do they identify as gender critical? Or feminists?

What do you think a gender critical feminist is?

All of this.

I've been reading the Noah Ruiz story and looking at his Twitter profile.

A couple of things are striking here.

Firstly, Noah looks quite male in his photos and has obviously been using testosterone for some time, but refers to being lifted up by his sports bra straps, so presumably has not had a mastectomy. He seems to have quite a slight build and I can well imagine that he might appear male at first glance with the facial hair and masculine clothing, but female when you take a closer look.

In the article it says that a woman originally told him to use the men's toilets and he explained that he was transgender with female body parts and had been told to use the women's. There is no indication in the article that the conversation continued after that and that the woman did not accept what Noah had told her.

According to the article Noah was attacked by a group of men after leaving the toilets. There is nothing to suggest that there is any connection between the woman who questioned Noah in the toilets and the men who attacked him afterwards.

The men who attacked him afterwards physically beat him up and called him names like "fag". This is a homophobic slur and not the kind of language I have ever heard a gender critical feminist use.

In the video Noah posted on Twitter he says he was arrested for being aggressive towards police officers and he was attended by three male police officers. He apparently asked for a female police officer and a lawyer.

I find it interesting that in a moment of vulnerability, Noah asked for a female police officer. Apparently trans men feel threatened by male cops and ask for a female cop in pretty much the same circumstances women might, if arrested.

Noah clearly knows exactly what sex he is.

Noah is obviously very vulnerable and what happened to him is appalling.

Blaming gender critical feminists, however, is insane.

Transgender people currently have the right to use the bathroom of their choice

No they do not. They can use opposite sex toilets when service providers don't specifically make them single sex.

They don't have any "right" to violate the privacy and dignity of the opposite sex.

But you've ignored posts proving you wrong so often that I don't think you're posting in good faith, are you? Prove me wrong.

Can you answer the questions put to you please, DadJoke, instead of the constant obfuscation and misdirection? It doesn't help your argument. It makes you look like a gaslighter who can't read or answer basic questions.

This.

Poor Noah, what a horrible crime to be subjected to.

I hope Noah was properly supported by the police and charges were brought.

Noah was arrested for being aggressive towards the police.

In Noah's latest update one of the aggressors had also been arrested.

Any man in the U.K. can use any space, that's a common law right. He can be prevented from using a space if it is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim to make it single sex, such as the people who it was intended for (women) will be intimidated, harassed and humiliated by the presence of a man, including "trans women".

In the U.K., and US most women do not want to share toilets and changing rooms with people with penises. There is no societal mandate for men to ride roughshod over the feelings and rights of women and girls.

Crikey, what a clusterfuck.

I suppose a ‘fight’ response as part of fight/flight/fawn/freeze could have occurred?

But obvs a court case would need to clear up exactly what happened here.

Regardless, the aggressive men who attacked Noah are deffo not gender critical and deffo not feminists.

Any man in the U.K. can use any space, that's a common law right.

Apologies to Scots, please correct me if the law on this is different there!

It's at best disingenuous and worst deliberate promoting hate against gender critical feminists, to suggest that those men were "gender critical". It's misogynistic in the extreme to blame women for men's actions.

No, they do not.

I think cases such as Noah's do lend weight to the argument for third spaces.

Women are on their guard now, we almost expect to be confronted with men in our single sex spaces, and I can totally see why a woman might be defensive upon seeing someone who presents as a man in the women's toilets.

If I had met Noah in that toilet, not immediately clocked that he is female and challenged him, I would have accepted the explanation.

The fact that he was attacked by a group of men for using the women's toilets shows that he would not have been safe in the men's either, and the park owner was right to advise him to use the women's.

They can use opposite sex toilets when service providers don't specifically make them single sex.

And what I mean by this is not that they should, because single sex female toilets are for women, but that they will interpret that as "single gender" and so there need to be clearer guidelines on what service providers should do to make clear to women that toilets/changing rooms etc are mixed sex. I believe the majority MTF trans people generally know full well that many/most women don't want any males at all in our spaces. They enter them regardless, because like other males, they don't have much respect for us.

It's not trespassing for transgender people to use the correct bathroom and it's a legal right that transgender people currently have. If you have a single case to the contrary, by all means share it. There are some cases where it is legitimate and proportionate to exclude transgender people, if the provider of those spaces wants it, but this is not one of those cases.

It's not the "correct bathroom", @DadJoke, it is a single sex space for members of the opposite sex.

Which part of this are you struggling with?

Have you even read the Equality Act and its accompanying guidance?

Various posters in this thread have spelled it out to you very clearly. Why are you ignoring the law?

It's not the "correct" bathroom (or toilet if you are in the UK).

We have spaces that are separated by sex. Not "gender identity".

Can you give us your understanding of the reasons women had to have single sex spaces and services please? I've asked on numerous occasions now, but you have consistently failed to answer this most basic question. Can you also explain if and why you think it's okay for women not to have EVER been asked for their consent on whether having some males in their spaces was okay and if you think shutting down discussion on that is democratic?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/guidance-separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-equality-act-sex-and-gender-reassignment-exceptions.pdf

Lots of stuff about toilets in here, @Dadjoke.

Please re-read it. I said "people" not feminists. This is the invevitable result of what happens when transphobic hatred is stirred up, and transgender people are forced (with your approval) to use the wrong bathrooms. The sex-based approach is uneforceable, terrible for GNC non-trans people, and will not protect women.