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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butches against transpohobia

804 replies

Catsanfan · 24/10/2023 16:09

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

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24
MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 21:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 20:46

Of course it is something they have in common!

The effect of exogenous oestrogen on a male body is not the same as it is on a female one. I don't need to be a scientist or a doctor to not think a male taking some pills has anything in common with women.

Or, to quote Posie Parker, "I'm not a vet but I know what a bloody dog is."

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:21

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 20:49

I don't think anyone is suggesting you shouldn't use it to describe yourself. Just that you shouldn't use it to describe anyone else unless you know for sure that they also identify as "cis".

It doesn't mean "not trans".

I am 100% up for people making up new words to describe their new fancy sexualities, gender identities, starsigns, or whatever. Fill your boots! Best idea I've heard in ages! Go for it, and good luck reproducing!

But they absolutely cannot and do not get to define other people's identities, words, language.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:23

I answered based on my experience of my lesbian friends, and I got a million replies telling me what was wrong with that

You are talking on behalf of people who aren't here, and claiming your second hand experience trumps the experience of women/lesbians who are right here.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:24

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 20:58

But I'm not Swedish and to my knowledge no one on this thread is Swedish.

And frankly, if the whole world started referring to me as a "not Swedish woman" at the request of Swedish people, I would tell the entire population of Sweden to fuck off.

I don't label myself by what I am not, and I don't consent to other people labelling me that way.

I can swear in Swedish if that helps. 🙂

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:25

JaneGainsborough · 24/10/2023 20:33

You don't say whether Ken is cis or trans. If Ken is cis, then female hormones unite Jill and Jane against Ken. If Ken is trans post op, breast tissue and genitalia unite Jill and Jane. It really isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. If someone isn't into any of them, fine. I have no skin in this game, but I am bemused at just how angry this issue seems to make people. If you don't want to sleep with someone, don't! You don't have to have a laundry list of reasons why not. Just don't get angry when people self define as they like and don't agree with your definition of themselves.

So you're saying a transwoman has to be taking estrogen to be a transwoman? Otherwise he's just a man?

wordler · 24/10/2023 21:26

I'm sorry I used cis for those of you who are offended by it but it was simply a much quicker way to describe "a person who is not identifying/presenting as the opposite sex" because typing that out took so much longer.

And in a discussion solely about sexuality we need to be able to describe both biological preferences and gender presentation preferences because a man presenting as a woman who is attracted to female bodies PLUS male bodies identifying and presenting as women is different to a man not presenting as a woman who is attracted to both women and men who do not present as the opposite sex.

I would describe the second person as bi-sexual as a dating app could then present profiles of both women and men who do not present as the opposite sex. But the transwoman on the same site is not going to get the results needed by ticking the bi box. They need a way to identify women and transwomen who are also open to dating both women and transwomen.

I agree with PP posters that word should not be lesbian because it's already currently taken by biological women who only want to date other biological women.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 21:27

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 20:29

Ok, so what we're seeing now is people saying the term 'lesbian' shouldn't be used by anyone who doesn't fit their narrow criteria of what lesbian entails, and people also shouldn't use queer, as this word is offensive to some.

Who is doing the policing of language, exactly?

It's taking me back to those gold star lesbian debates!

Lets look at this another way, what do the countries that have performed best for women have to say on this matter? Are they obsessed with strict dictionary definitions, or have they gone down a different route, allowing easier self-ID for their citizens?

In fact, the 4 countries in the world that are doing the best for women in improving equality for women and closing the gender gap have all moved to more relaxed policies of gender self-ID. This is from the global gender gap index, a report that is cited by governments, health organisations and women's groups internationally. They have also remained in those top 4 positions in the last years and have not dropped down, despite their introduction of these policies.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/#:~:text=The%20global%20gender%20gap%20index%202023&text=The%20global%20gender%20gap%20index%20benchmarks%20national%20gender%20gaps%20on,with%20a%20score%20of%200.91.

https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2023/

So it would seem that doing well for women is not incompatible with the approaches they have taken for gender self ID and more relaxed attitudes to definitions.

Further to this information on countries that are happy to proceed with citizen self-definition rather than strict dictionary definitions as many on this thread would prefer, I want to pre-empt some of the points that people often come back with when this data is cited... so firstly people often say that these countries are not recording sex properly, so how do we know what the figures actually show?

So to answer that, a tiny, tiny minority of these populations are identifying as trans, and there has been no dramatic change in these figures. If there are trans women in the figures for women then this would actually lower that countries performance in the inequality index, as trans women score poorly across all the outcomes that are measured, and this would drag that country's performance for women down, not artificially inflate it.

A second point some people make is that these countries did not ask their populations in a referendum about these issues, and that was unfair. The reality is the vast majority of policies in democratic countries are introduced by governments without referenda, and in fact this helps protect against bigotry that influences the popular vote unfortunately.

A third point that some people make is that we do not know the outcomes of these decisions yet as they have been made in the last few years and we're still gathering research about the impact. The reality is that the most pronounced effect of policy change occurs immediately or very soon after the implementation of that policy, so you would expect to see dramatic shifts occur around the time of the new policy and implementation, and to see this very visibly contrast to what had been seen prior to policy implementation. Thereafter you would expect to see a tapering effect occur.

For example, in a hypothetical given population you might see 500 people make use of the new rights in the first year that it is introduced, and then in subsequent years maybe 200 and then 100 and then 50 to 80 every year moving forward. If a negative effect of the introduction of a new policy were to occur you would expect this to be very striking in the immediate period after the introduction and then a tapering effects to occur. There is no evidence from any countries about any measurable negative impact on women of this policy change.

The countries that introduced these policies and are in the top four performing countries for women worldwide have stayed in these positions; if there was a negative impact on women as a result of introducing relaxed self gender ID procedures you would expect to see these countries drop down this equalities table as a result. The fact that they have not is strong evidence that these policies have not been a detriment to women.

A fourth point that some people have made is that introducing these policies has not been causative in making life better for women. Of course I am not trying to make any causative case along those lines, I am simply pointing out that there has been no measurable negative effect on women because of the introduction of these policies. We do know in general that, as the lives and well-being of LGBT people improve, so do the lives and well-being of women in a given population however.

A fifth point that people make is that different measures should have been used in the formation of this equality's index; for example, they ask why crimes against women have not been used to help form it. The fact is that countries measure criminality in different ways and so some countries might not, for example, record wife beating as a crime, and it also may be very under-reported in some countries. This would lead to data that is not robust and where cross comparison cannot accurately be performed, so it is not appropriate to use measures like this due to the variations in the reporting and the recording of crimes against women in different countries.

What we do know is that the measures that the equalities index do use tend to be very well correlated (negatively) with violence against women; so, when women are performing well economically, educationally, health-wise, and politically, they also are, on the whole, at less risk of criminality and abuse.

The fact is that those top countries, Iceland, Norway, Finland, New Zealand, have excellent track records in their performance on women's equality. Why would you think, that given their excellent track record, they are all suddenly going wrong now? Their excellent track records have not been impacted by their introduction of their relaxed self-ID policies – and these are policies that are proceeding without strict, dictionary definitions that many posters on this thread seem obsessed with, and are making use of the right of their citizens to determine their definitions for themselves.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 21:27

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:21

I am 100% up for people making up new words to describe their new fancy sexualities, gender identities, starsigns, or whatever. Fill your boots! Best idea I've heard in ages! Go for it, and good luck reproducing!

But they absolutely cannot and do not get to define other people's identities, words, language.

And they also cannot include other people in their identities without their consent.

If you are male and you believe you have an identity which includes all women except the ones who say they identify as something else, and so you're going to use the word "woman" for your identity, and any woman who continues to refer to herself as a woman is accepting being included in your identity, you can do one.

SpicyMoth · 24/10/2023 21:28

Flickersy · 24/10/2023 16:34

"Presented with a penis" is such a strange expression to be fair. It makes it seem like some posters think that's how TW say hello. Perhaps an alternative to shaking hands.

I've only ever dated men and I don't think I've ever been "presented with a penis". I did have one ex at uni who tied a bow round it one Christmas when we were both pissed.. maybe that counts?

It's not that complicated I don't think? - You can be expecting one thing, and get presented with another.
Therefore you get, "presented with a penis".
Sure you could argue it's hyperbolic possibly, but that's a bit disingenuous with how human beings communicate verbally with one another, as if we don't use language to emphasise points or make light of something.
I really wish people would stop taking things "exactly to the T" literally when they're clearly not intended to be.

When someone tells you they were "so exhausted they passed out" as soon as they got home, do you assume the second the stepped through their front door they keeled over and fainted?
No, you'd assume they got home, got changed, and went to bed falling asleep quickly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:28

but it was simply a much quicker way to describe "a person who is not identifying/presenting as the opposite sex"

What it shows is that it's easier for you to respect some people's feelings than others.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:30

As an atheist I don't identify myself as a heretic or an infidel, as I don't view myself through the prism of other people's religious beliefs.

bombastix · 24/10/2023 21:32

The whole thing is performance. I perform being a woman, I am feminine, I draw on the experiences of others and claim them as my own, I claim that sex is not about sex but just performance, I claim that name, I am queering all of this because basically I am straight, but I feel different. Then I will perform all of this and claim to be oppressed.

Jesus. Overt homophobia is easier to deal with

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:33

because it's already currently taken by biological women

There is no other type of woman. Please don't co-opt me into your genderist belief system by referring to me as "cis" which is a belief I don't hold.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 21:34

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 21:27

Further to this information on countries that are happy to proceed with citizen self-definition rather than strict dictionary definitions as many on this thread would prefer, I want to pre-empt some of the points that people often come back with when this data is cited... so firstly people often say that these countries are not recording sex properly, so how do we know what the figures actually show?

So to answer that, a tiny, tiny minority of these populations are identifying as trans, and there has been no dramatic change in these figures. If there are trans women in the figures for women then this would actually lower that countries performance in the inequality index, as trans women score poorly across all the outcomes that are measured, and this would drag that country's performance for women down, not artificially inflate it.

A second point some people make is that these countries did not ask their populations in a referendum about these issues, and that was unfair. The reality is the vast majority of policies in democratic countries are introduced by governments without referenda, and in fact this helps protect against bigotry that influences the popular vote unfortunately.

A third point that some people make is that we do not know the outcomes of these decisions yet as they have been made in the last few years and we're still gathering research about the impact. The reality is that the most pronounced effect of policy change occurs immediately or very soon after the implementation of that policy, so you would expect to see dramatic shifts occur around the time of the new policy and implementation, and to see this very visibly contrast to what had been seen prior to policy implementation. Thereafter you would expect to see a tapering effect occur.

For example, in a hypothetical given population you might see 500 people make use of the new rights in the first year that it is introduced, and then in subsequent years maybe 200 and then 100 and then 50 to 80 every year moving forward. If a negative effect of the introduction of a new policy were to occur you would expect this to be very striking in the immediate period after the introduction and then a tapering effects to occur. There is no evidence from any countries about any measurable negative impact on women of this policy change.

The countries that introduced these policies and are in the top four performing countries for women worldwide have stayed in these positions; if there was a negative impact on women as a result of introducing relaxed self gender ID procedures you would expect to see these countries drop down this equalities table as a result. The fact that they have not is strong evidence that these policies have not been a detriment to women.

A fourth point that some people have made is that introducing these policies has not been causative in making life better for women. Of course I am not trying to make any causative case along those lines, I am simply pointing out that there has been no measurable negative effect on women because of the introduction of these policies. We do know in general that, as the lives and well-being of LGBT people improve, so do the lives and well-being of women in a given population however.

A fifth point that people make is that different measures should have been used in the formation of this equality's index; for example, they ask why crimes against women have not been used to help form it. The fact is that countries measure criminality in different ways and so some countries might not, for example, record wife beating as a crime, and it also may be very under-reported in some countries. This would lead to data that is not robust and where cross comparison cannot accurately be performed, so it is not appropriate to use measures like this due to the variations in the reporting and the recording of crimes against women in different countries.

What we do know is that the measures that the equalities index do use tend to be very well correlated (negatively) with violence against women; so, when women are performing well economically, educationally, health-wise, and politically, they also are, on the whole, at less risk of criminality and abuse.

The fact is that those top countries, Iceland, Norway, Finland, New Zealand, have excellent track records in their performance on women's equality. Why would you think, that given their excellent track record, they are all suddenly going wrong now? Their excellent track records have not been impacted by their introduction of their relaxed self-ID policies – and these are policies that are proceeding without strict, dictionary definitions that many posters on this thread seem obsessed with, and are making use of the right of their citizens to determine their definitions for themselves.

These statistics are completely flawed and based on fairly arbitrary criteria which cause countries to rise and fall in the rankings for fairly absurd reasons. For example, a country gets more points if the head of state is a woman, regardless of whether the head of state is elected or unelected. So the death of Queen Elizabeth would have caused the UK to lose "points", so to speak.

It's also not clear how any of the countries concerned are defining "women", but I would guess that in quite a few of them the word includes people with penises. In which case, if Emmanuel Macron were to come out as a trans woman tomorrow, we could expect to see France rise in the rankings, even though the effect of that on women's rights might be wholly negative.

Anyway, it simply isn't the case to say that countries which have introduced self ID have done so with zero consequences to women.

Barbie Kardashian in Ireland.
A feminist facing criminal charges for tweeting that men can't be mothers or lesbians in Norway.
The Prime Minister of New Zealand publicly praising the violent mob of trans activists who assaulted Posie Parker and other women attending the Let Women Speak event in Auckland.

I wouldn't feel safe living in any of those countries today, and I don't give a shit about the statistics.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:37

These statistics are completely flawed and based on fairly arbitrary criteria which cause countries to rise and fall in the rankings for fairly absurd reasons.

As @suggestionsplease1 has been told on countless threads.

wordler · 24/10/2023 21:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:28

but it was simply a much quicker way to describe "a person who is not identifying/presenting as the opposite sex"

What it shows is that it's easier for you to respect some people's feelings than others.

It shows that in my regular life I don't know anyone who thinks cis is offensive, and like most people typing on a phone in a short break it's easier to use a shorthand.

I do understand the view and arguments of those on here about why they find it problematic though. I will avoid using it here on this thread to respect your point of view.

But can you move past the word and understand my wider point? We do need new ways to communicate our sexual needs to one another in a way which keeps everyone safe, comfortable and happy.

We need more words. Or to adapt existing words.

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 21:42

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 21:34

These statistics are completely flawed and based on fairly arbitrary criteria which cause countries to rise and fall in the rankings for fairly absurd reasons. For example, a country gets more points if the head of state is a woman, regardless of whether the head of state is elected or unelected. So the death of Queen Elizabeth would have caused the UK to lose "points", so to speak.

It's also not clear how any of the countries concerned are defining "women", but I would guess that in quite a few of them the word includes people with penises. In which case, if Emmanuel Macron were to come out as a trans woman tomorrow, we could expect to see France rise in the rankings, even though the effect of that on women's rights might be wholly negative.

Anyway, it simply isn't the case to say that countries which have introduced self ID have done so with zero consequences to women.

Barbie Kardashian in Ireland.
A feminist facing criminal charges for tweeting that men can't be mothers or lesbians in Norway.
The Prime Minister of New Zealand publicly praising the violent mob of trans activists who assaulted Posie Parker and other women attending the Let Women Speak event in Auckland.

I wouldn't feel safe living in any of those countries today, and I don't give a shit about the statistics.

This is data that is cited by governments, health organisations and women's rights organisations internationally.

But I guess you know better than them all?

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 21:44

@ssuggestionsplease1

Those tables are so good that NZ lost points one year after QE2 died simply because the new HoS is male.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:45

most people typing on a phone in a short break it's easier to use a shorthand.

It's nice to respect people though and not impose your belief system on them. I manage to talk about what I want to about sex and gender without either using disputed neologisms, or "misgendering" (because of the talk guidelines).

suggestionsplease1 · 24/10/2023 21:46

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 21:44

@ssuggestionsplease1

Those tables are so good that NZ lost points one year after QE2 died simply because the new HoS is male.

There is no such thing as perfect data, but this is an excellent attempt to look at the wellbeing and equality of women along a number of very important measures, and that is acknowledged internationally.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/10/2023 21:47

In all of the countries that Suggestions mentions words that women use to describe ourselves have been redefined by men and their supporters.

Those counties are seeing levels of misogyny that were mind blowing as few as 10 years ago. Women are being incarcerated with violent male prisoners, women are losing spaces in sport to men who claim to be trans, women are losing their jobs for speaking out. Children are protesting at having their speech compelled and being taught by males with fetishes. Children are being distanced by the state from their parents for concerns over physical harms caused by trans ideology and YET we are supposed to think these are progressive nations and turn a blind eye because MALES GET TO DO WHAT THEY WANT AND DGAF ABOUT THE IMPACT ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 21:47

wordler · 24/10/2023 21:40

It shows that in my regular life I don't know anyone who thinks cis is offensive, and like most people typing on a phone in a short break it's easier to use a shorthand.

I do understand the view and arguments of those on here about why they find it problematic though. I will avoid using it here on this thread to respect your point of view.

But can you move past the word and understand my wider point? We do need new ways to communicate our sexual needs to one another in a way which keeps everyone safe, comfortable and happy.

We need more words. Or to adapt existing words.

I already have all the words I need to describe myself. "Cis" is not one of those words.

If other people feel they need words to describe what they are, for example, if they are a male person who feels they are not a man, fine. Make up new ones. Do not "adapt existing ones", because other people are already using those words. Especially do not adapt existing words to include their polar opposite. So, if you are a male person who feels that they are not a man, you should not call yourself a woman because women are female people and they are allowed to have a word for themselves which does not include you.

If trans people could just respect this very simple request, for women to be allowed to have a word for themselves, none of this "cis" bollocks would be necessary. It is only necessary to have a word to distinguish women from trans women because trans women are using the word "woman".

We wouldn't need a word to distinguish women from squigglybobs, or whatever new word trans women chose for themselves, because everybody would know what everybody else was talking about.

Unfortunately the confusion and the blurring of boundaries is the point. It's a feature, not a bug.

ArabellaScott · 24/10/2023 21:48

Did we get any definition of 'femininity' yet?

I'm still stuck here with transwomen and women having just 'hormones' in common, even though I'm pretty sure lots of transwomen don't take estrogen.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2023 21:48

We do need new ways to communicate our sexual needs to one another in a way which keeps everyone safe, comfortable and happy.

With respect, this is quite a naive expectation. Do you honestly think that many MTF trans people will be happy with a word which doesn't acknowledge their spurious claim to be female? IMO you're missing a lot here.

JanesLittleGirl · 24/10/2023 21:48

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