Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

That may be the case, Stella.

This is one of the very few places on earth where women's voices can be unapologetically centred.

Obviously just another isolated example but Glinner shared a video that a man had taken on what looked like a UK tube train.
There was a transwoman seated immediately in front of the man, who was standing in the door area behind the glass panel, holding the poll.
The transwoman kept putting a hand out towards the man's foot on the floor, "subtly" reaching down and around. The man moved his foot and the hand reached around more.
This went on for a bit, with the man moving his foot around and the transwoman's hand chasing it.
Eventually, the man shouted at the transwoman when the train pulled in to a station. The transwoman got up and ran off.
I think Glinner's comment was something like "How many women would feel comfortable confronting this man?"
There were a few comments suggesting that the transwoman had learned a lesson. My own was something like "Or they got back and wrote about it.." [I would have been a bit braver than that on Twitter but I don't want to get this comment deleted]
Obviously conjecture, and a sample size of two, but it does sound like perhaps being bolshy here could be part of the thrill.

Yep, agreed and understood. Obviously there are the LWS events too.. if people can hear each other over the noise of those who don't like that idea. I'm yet to attend one but I'm sure I will in the future.

See above @ArabellaScott ☝️ Not sure how that didn't attach.

I attended a LWS. Took a fair bit of courage, but very glad I did, as it let me make contact with local feminists I may not have met otherwise (so much is semi-underground...)

That was on a Luas tram in Dublin. The transwoman also kept adjusting a heavy bag on their lap, either to hide their erection or to provide a solid surface to masturbate against. It was interesting that in that case their erotic focus was a man's shoes.

It showed very clearly that for that man, wearing short skirts, make-up, and a long wig was all part of an extended sexual act with a non-consenting other. Almost all women have encountered men who impose their arousal on us, with or without fancy dress. Reasons for letting women retain women-only spaces.

I now stay away from the safety part of the argument over toilets as it ends up getting tangled in a load of nonsense from transwomen and their allies. We get:

"You are accusing all transwomen of being a threat."

"It doesn't happen and if it does then it's very rare."

"But we're at even greater risk if we use the Men's."

You can probably add your own claims to this list.

I refer to dignity and privacy only. I have only had pushback twice on FWR. Once when I was described dealing with the aftermath of a flooding period when I was told that I should have been arrested and once when I was told that my dignity was too fragile.

I more than understood the questions. It was the pile on from 3 different posters constantly asking me to answer . And constantly contradicting me on what type of trans person I was describing . And at one point a poster was quoting me at
2.30 am . This thread has basically made me no longer want to engage any further in any discussions on women's rights and safety. That is not how any woman should feel .

That was probably me at 2:30am. My baby decided not to sleep at all last night. Sorry.

I would appreciate it if all posters could stop discussing my husband now .
Many Thanks .

I think this is an important point. Transvestites have been around since forever. Up until recently, they would have received horrified looks and probably some lewd comments when going out dressed like this. The shocked and disgusted reaction from most people would be enough to give them some of the kicks they were looking for. Grayson Perry has talked about this - how his 'Claire' character started being fawned over and there was no shock factor, so he now finds it less fulfilling.

Now that 'trans' people are being celebrated rather than viewed as shocking, transvestites who are dressing like this because of a fetish need to escalate their behaviour in order to get the satisfaction they crave. So they are likely to be more open in including others in their fetish by touching or making other sexual advances. And because we're told that we're all supposed to be 'celebrating' trans people, we're bigots if we don't like this or point it out.

YY @OldCrone

Hey OP! So good to see you! What a weird, weird coincidence you missed all the previous pages of discussion but happened to pop by just in time to tell us how baaaaaaaaad we all are - who'd have seen that one coming?

Fancy engaging with any of detail in the 26 pages of discussion on the topic you raised?

Blimey! A double flouncer!

Is that rare?

I know right!! Naughty wims! Bad bad women!

How dare we not include male people in our feminism!!

Haha, 6/10 flounce. Poor OP, been on here for ages, and never gets a chance to talk about whatever the fuck it is poor OP wants to talk about! Thoughts and prayers....

This is actually pretty funny in parts.

“Who are the crazy women on here?!”

And yet, you started a thread and abandoned it without bothering to engage. You the one ranting and raving- maybe the ‘crazy’ person here is you?

“I've literally never met women like you in my life thank God!”

I suggest then that you get out more and meet some new people. Strangely, when you meet them it is likely they will have similar opinions to us, because the polls from numerous organisations have shown that the majority of people want female sports to be restricted to just female people, and that female people want their single sex spaces to remain single sex and exclude male people. All male people.

These are not controversial views. You said you share them even. You seem frustrated that you are sharing similar opinions as us, you must be very disappointed with that. Maybe you should seek some mental health support to help you cope and come to terms with it.

“You say you're for women's rights and safety yet the way you speak you're aggressive, single minded, unwilling to be inclusive or caring and not actually nice to women!!”

yes. We are single minded in liberating all female people from oppression! We don’t have any energy left over or interest come to think of it, to be working on improving outcomes for males. By the way, didn’t you post this thread on the sex and gender board? Didn’t you ask about middle ground? So, you ask for a discussion on the ‘middle ground’ when there is a conflict in the rights for female people and the demands of some male people, and then abuse women when they answer? So it was a trap?

Are feminists not allowed to be aggressive? Are you now channeling alpha’s ridiculous stereotypes for what women should be like? And when did feminist have to be nice! Or caring?

Did some of us miss the memo with the rules listed?

Why do we have to be inclusive of male people? You posts are confusing. Surely your OP said you were supporting excluding male people from sport… are you a hypocrite?

“Thank goodness Mumsnet women ie TROLLS are not like real life women.”

Again, the opinions expressed here are not controversial and are shared by the majority of female people in the UK. So that should be excellent proof that we are ‘just like real women’!

“Feminists are meant to support other women”

No. Feminists are meant to support all female people. Particularly while the term woman had been twisted to include male people.

”You are not them.”

Ok, then. That is us told.

“Goodbye.”

Cheery bye! Come back and chat
for real this time

😂🥱

Feminists are meant to support other women

What an odd assumption.

Feminists want women to not be disadvantaged or disempowered just because they are women. To that degree, we support all women.

But there are about 4 billion other women (female) on the planet. At least some of them will be doing questionable things. I'm no more going to support them in everything they do just because they are women than I would undermine a man doing something good just because he is a man.

Feminists are not T-shirt slogan "You Go Girl!" cheerleaders for women.

We don't support specific actions of individual women if they work against feminist goals although we may sympathise with the reasons they chose what they do, and we may support the women themselves in the situations they are in.

We also don't all agree on which actions are aligned with feminist goals and which ones aren't. We aren't really a "we" at all, we are lots of "we"s with different ideas about how best to advance Feminism, and we argue about it, and that's ok too.

Was that performance meant to show off the best of The Right Side of History? I'm so impressed and consider myself properly told: Real Wims, you must never appear aggressive or single-minded, and must always be inclusive, caring and naice. Also be made of sugar and spice.

Huh. Turns out feminism is a bit more complicated than shouting “GIRL POWER!” and doing this ✌️

I am getting a great education this week on what women should be like. From people who consider themselves the ultimate women and righteous with it. It is right up there with that male poster who told us woman was a constellation of points with particularly womanly characteristics or something a few months back.

I tell you all though, I am feeling quite liberated knowing that I never have fit these oppressive stereotypes! Maybe that IS feminism!! (Of course, I am joking.)

But seriously, no wonder we get called hateful so often. It is because some people have descriptions of women and feminists that don’t reflect the reality.

U ok Hun?