Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

Karensalright one of the legal people might weigh in, especially if they actually heard BC, but I don't think that's what BC's case was. I think, rather than focus on defending JP's words and actions, he argued that it's already been established that nothing JP did was over any legal line. Her views are known to be protected, by Forstater, and her manifestation of them must also be ok. He argued, I think, that the case is about FoS of the OU people - was their treatment of JP legitimate free speech, or did it cross the line into bullying and harrassment? Then he argues that it crosses the line.

raclette is a cheese made in switzerland and france that has a very satisfying melting point.

used in fondue for example.
or under a racelette grill.

What is raclette, exactly?

Melted cheesy deliciousness. It’s a bit like Gruyère.

I've never had fondue, either. I watch Richard Osman's House of Games and always shout: "Fondue set!" when they show it as a prize.

I know, I should get out more...

In the dim and distant past when we had more money DH and I used to holiday at a particular Caribbean hotel where the chef was Swiss and the food was notably good. Lunches were casual buffets and we lived for the once-a-week raclette. Sliced cooked potatoes were served as a base for the gooey gorgeousness. It was a meal that usually involved DH making fairly successful efforts to eat his own weight in melty cheese heaven, and let's just say the afternoons following those lunches were usually quite…sedentary.

Raclette is utterly gorgeous. We were introduced to it by a French colleague, many years ago. Presumably there are many versions (?) but hers was served with waxy potatoes and an assortment of cured meats (French, naturally). We put slices of cheese on the little individual trays, grilled them to our liking, then scraped the gooey goodness over the meat and potatoes. What's not to love?

We were (for a time) very tempted to buy ourselves a raclette machine.

I live in France and we have not explored Raclette yet.

I'm off to look at Raclette you tube videos now, thanks for that!

Good to see you Jo, what an absolute star you are, to force these supposedly educated people spouting utter nonsensical gibberish in a court in front of a judge.

It's early Sunday morning and now my stomach is rumbling for raclette and waxy potatoes.

That seemed to me to be the approach BC was taking based on the reports of his closing submission in this thread.

“The one thing in all this i could not compute was the expressions in mostly Academia, student land, SWP, TRA websites, demo footage and other commentary was the apparent “hurt, distress, upset, fear, betrayal,” narrative in public discourse from TRA point of view.
^^
It strikes me that this is a deliberate and coordinate strategy by the TRA, movement (whomsoever) they are, to seek protection under international law, hence the puzzling accusations they make against GRC views, and what i deem to be the right wing press, in particular, views such as you are a fascist bigot…. Etc.
^^
Racism and other dangerous views are not protected anywhere in law. So my train of thought is that this is a coordinated strategy, it bears all the hallmarks of it. So who is coordinating it? I cannot believe that it would not be so, based on my own experience .

I think it might be very important. Should i start another thread is this trodden ground please let me know”

The protection under international law angle hadn’t occurred to me.

I’d been assuming the accusations of racism / fascism / far right affiliation were being deployed as a technique intended to: trigger in-tribe loyalty; generate an emotional rather than an intellectual response to the topic; stifle any open-minded engagement with the issues; defame, undermine, and exclude those attempting to speak up for women’s rights. And I’d assumed the accusations of racism were being used because, currently, that’s the worst thing you can accuse someone of, whereas being misogynist (as ever) is ok apparently.

It’s looking like this thread has become a general chat/ hobbies discussion, as there won’t be any developments on the case for quite a while now, so you might want to start a new thread. However, it strikes me as a topic that may well attract derailment efforts from not-in-good-faith posters. If that does happen, it’s not you, it’s them.

I'm rather hoping that this tribunal, and Allison Bailey's appeal against Stonewall, will clarify that falsely accusing GC women of racism is bullying and unacceptable.

I'm thinking that in Jo Phonenix's case, the judge and Panel have to determine if it is more likely than not that the 'racist uncle' comment was made to her by a colleague. If they decide that yes, the comment was made, then they would have to further decide if that was part of a pattern of bullying, victimisation and/or discrimination. Important stuff.

@AutumnCrow I think Jo WhatsApp’d someone quoting the racist uncle comment at the time. This makes it slightly stronger evidence than had she only quoted it in her evidence.

I nearly got a raclette 'machine' for a single serving a while ago from amazon. It was a wee metal tray heated by a tea light, only cost a few quid. I'm all tempted again. I've seen it served over sliced potato and onion, looked so yummy.

Hmm as someone once said; I came to mumsnet for the baby advice and stayed for the feminism. I think I came for the feminism and will stay for the cheese.

🧀

DH melts cheese in a non-stick frying pan and then pours it over chips. Is this pretty much the same thing?

All this cheesy melty talk is leading me towards Welsh Rarebit for lunch.

Sorry to derail with further cheese talk but there’s This….

Ah yes, thank you - it is hopefully looking reasonably strong for her on that issue, then, on the balance of probabilities?

Who was it who recommended cheese and kimchi toasties? I can't find the comment, maybe I dreamed it all. We've just tried kimchi and cheese on toast and it's very weird, but I can see wanting another taste.

@AutumnCrow I think the fact Jo disclosed all her WhatsApp messages and that OU witnesses changed their phone etc. and so couldn’t (wouldn’t) disclose their WhatsApp messages and in evidence they said they used WhatsApp etc. to draft/publicise the open letter leaves a gap in their evidence.

Ben said read Jo’s emails etc alongside her WhatsApp messages so you are reading the public and private communications sent at the same time. Clearly they can’t do this for the OU witnesses so the ET panel can draw conclusions based on the absence of OU evidence.

It was @CriticalCondition above.

I’m intrigued by the combination. Does it need to be cheddar or could something like a good Red Leicester (one of my favourite cheeses) work?

@Sisterpita

Yes, in Wagather case the courts did just that. My musing is that the missing what’s apps could probably lead to who is organising all of this. I think i can guess.

I must say i find it incredibly disrespectful to Jo to be going on about cheese on this thread. The poor woman will be a bag of nerves until the judgement is issued and all we are getting from a certain group is god bless the cheese makers FFS

@Karensalright JP did actually make a comment on here over the weekend to say she loves cheese and that we'd given her some cheer. I'm sure she realises that no disrespect is intended, and she knows all about disrespect.

Thank you everyone for your comments here. I have enjoyed them and they gave me heart (and at times laughter) during a difficult 3 weeks.

I doubt anyone but JP could give a definitive opinion in re: her comments about laughter to know if that encompasses the digressions or not.

And, yes, I've no doubt that someone, somewhere has a back-up of the WhatsApp group that makes it clear as to the identity of the author of the original draft of the letter.

Thanks to @CriticalCondition

@SidewaysOtter I expect Red Leicester would be fine. We used mature cheddar.

I have visions now of Prof Phoenix turning up to work on Monday to find a wall of artisan cheeses in the Law post room and a card in her pigeonhole saying "We sent you some cheese. Love, The Vipers".