Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

I knew that worker bees had a life that was nasty, brutish and short - a bit like an old boss of mine, but I digress - but the revelations on this thread have been vomit-inducing revelatory.

I am now wondering whether the bees that I have found drowned in my bird bath, which I have thought had accidentally got out of their depth, have actually had "Goodbye, Cruel World" impulses.

I will never sing "Here is the beehive but where are all the bees" with quite such abandon ever again.

I've been following this from thread 1 but haven't said much because I'm not funny or particularly clever, and it's so much more entertaining to read other people's contributions. The knowledge and insight on show in these threads is amazing.

@JoPhoenix thank you so much for your bravery in bringing this case, and I hope you can have a bit of an emotional rest now.

I'm shutting my bees up for the winter this weekend, I will be warning them to play nicely until the spring!

My much more sedate contribution about bees…

Elsie Widdowson was an amazing researcher in nutrition to whom we owe so much for her work that helped the UK to have adequate nutrition during WWII and so much more beyond that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_Widdowson

Widdowson's sister, Eva Crane, was a quantum mathematician and amongst the many interesting findings in her life…

Her interest in bees began when she and her husband received a beehive as a wedding present; the giver had hoped that it would help supplement their wartime sugar ration.[3] She became a member of the British Beekeepers Association and quickly became the secretary of its research committee. In 1949 she founded the Bee Research Association which later became the International Bee Research Association.[4]
Crane wrote over 180 papers, articles, and books, many when she was in her 70s and 80s.[3] Honey: A Comprehensive Survey (1975), in which she contributed several important chapters, and edited, came about because she told the publisher (Heinemann Press) that a book on the subject was sorely needed. Although now out of print, it remains the most significant review on the subject ever written. A Book of Honey (1980) and The Archaeology of Beekeeping (1983) reflected her strong interests in nutrition and the ancient past of beekeeping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Crane

Having defended the slightly mansplainy challenge to my terminology, there'll be no more graphic bee sex from me, I appreciate it's not for everyone!

I hope Jo has had a good night's sleep and wakes with lighter shoulders this morning. Good to see her garden only needs a few more carrots.

My bees are lovely. Good tempered and just getting on with their busy bee lives. But those sisters can be fierce if their space gets invaded. Waves a smoker to @PonyPatter44.* *

We kept bees for a few years but realised we didn't really have time to do the job properly. The Girls, as they were known, were lovely and very calm, to the extent we never used smoke, and we passed them on to a new beekeeper. We still have all the kit so collect swarms if asked, and enjoy trips out to collect them with the woman who mentored us to begin with. We also have a Lucky Tree in the garden and have had up to seven swarms a year stop off in it. Those get passed on too, if we can reach them.

Thinking back, there was one occasion when they got really cross. We were trying to move a hive after dark but one of us tripped and it started to come apart as we moved it. Those girls were furious for a while. They were very high pitched in their buzzing and there was a lot of dive bombing of our suits. It was really intense but that was the only time they got fierce.

Morning Vegemite ! How lovely that you haven't hung up your beesuit completely. We call ours The Girls too.

Off to get some nice bread today to try out your salty sweet combo.

Makes you wonder how many beekeepers call them The Girls. I'm glad to have worked closely with bees, they are delightful creatures and the hum of a contented colony is a pleasure to hear.

Hope you enjoy the salty-sweet loveliness!

Checking in and catching up on this thread after travelling all week. @JoPhoenix, you are a hero and it was staggering to see the bullying, cowardice and DARVO on display at your former workplace. I wanted to drag you away, feed you cheese and put on Gloria Gaynor's classic "I will survive". 🧀🌺

Also thanks to the rest of you lovely wims for the sarcasm, knowledge and bee sex.

We've just taken on stores, ten pallets. One had 250 kg of cheese, which seems to have been most Jarlsberg, which I dislike intensely. It's a lot of cheese for a ship with only 24 people. Food is significantly cheaper in the Netherlands than it is in the UK.

Or at least, the agents aren't such rip off merchants £5 for a jar of Happy Shopper mixed fruit jam, anyone?

Roughly 10kg apiece for what length of time? (Enquiring minds need to know.)

We're on for a month, but I suppose it'll keep longer than that, for the next victims.

That's a heck of a lot of cheese for 24 people, but then I recall when we'd go the pub after work in Amsterdam and many times the Dutch would order heaping great plates of cheese cubes to share and they all got eaten. Never seen people eat so much cheese in one go.

I've just been reading about Jo and the School of Law at the University of Reading. I'd have loved someone like Jo to have taught on my LLB, many years ago.

Jo, you seem to be well placed there, surrounded by colleagues who still know how to think critically. In fact, they are people who thrive on debate and discussion, who don't try to shut it down.

That sort of legal academic atmosphere is one you will be supported in I'm sure! Your students will so enjoy your teaching, knowing that they need to think for themselves, to research, to read widely, question, and understand. They'll not be blinkered when some eejits try tell them what to think. Also they'll understand the Law as it is, not according to SW. Thank goodness!

I’ll take some of your Jarlsberg. I love it.

So do I - taste and texture is lovely!

The Gouda has all been eaten. We had bacon rolls with melted Gouda for lunch. They were good but no better than they would have been with cheaper cheese.

Alice Medrich has a book about chocolate and has lots of interesting guidance about when it's worth using the expensive 70%+ chocolate, when it should be 40% or less.

Loosely speaking, it's frequently not appropriate to use 70%+ when baking as the heat destroys the notes and the make-up isn't appropriate to most recipes.

Some cheese on toast, cheese macaroni etc. recipes use 4 different cheeses for their different roles in texture and taste plus their reaction to heat and ability to blend with other flavours.

It's all surprisingly brutal isn't it?

And, hi Jo - glad we could make you laugh at times x

Me three.

I think it's not an excessive amount either. I just bought 1.3kg of raclette for this evening. We've got 2 adults, 1 teen, 1 toddler, and an elderly person with a small appetite. I figured that if we have leftover, it will keep till next week.

Wow, I’ve learned a lot about bees. I didn’t know they were so violent! I will view the lovely fluffy bumblebees with a different eye now…

@SinnerBoy I'm willing to relieve you of the burden of eating a cheese you don’t like by selflessly eating it myself. You’re welcome.

A homage to the song 'Amerika.'
Not inspired by the tribunal specifically, but I had the idea and thought that I'd try it out.

We're all living in America
Queer Theory is wonderful!
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT! (x2)

Where there's cancelling, I want to lead
Show I'm the 'right side of History'
Let your thoughts be controlled in full
I'll show how I fight bigotry

We're all making an anti-hate mob
'Freedom,' hear my tiny violins
Chanting slogans through loud hailers
See the witches burn for their sins

We're all living in America
Queer Theory is wonderful!
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT!

I know the MP's that are useful
Pronouns protect you from the law
Who doesn't want to embrace equity?
They're just Franco/Mussolini

We're making a brave new world
I will show you the progression
1984 with extra flags
All embrace Post Modernism!

We're all living in America
Queer Theory is wonderful!
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT!
We're all living in America
Cross sex hormones, surgery
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT!

This is not a hate speech
This is not a hate speech
I deny my own sex
No, this is not a hate speech

We're all living in America
Queer Theory is wonderful!
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT!
We're all living in America
Dutch protocol, more surgery
We're all breaking down barriers
Identity! CRT!

@prh47bridge @arrabella and others have just worked through all submissions, my interest is the importance of law in settling “these culture wars” but i also find myself in the GC camp after a huge and accelerated amount of research on the whole transgender rights vs women's rights issue.

Seems to me that BC submission is that the Forraster case means that the GC belief is a done deal, in that it is already protected. Therefore the issue before the court is, in part, where is the line drawn on the actual expression of said protected belief? And if that line in law has been crossed then JM has a defence to the complaint.

The line being international law such as the ECHR case law and the European convention on human rights, is clear that certain beliefs are not protected in international law such as racist ideology, terrorist ideology anti semmetic ideology etc. And that BC contention is that that JM has failed to make reference to where that line might be in this case?

Am i correct?

The reason i ask is just to be clear, but also because it has led me to a none legal political train of thought.

Legal folk might not want to be involved with this but here it is.

In my recent research of pretty much every angle, various Marxist positions, trans folk positions, sex matters, grim to me videos, podcasts, TRA positioning, stonewall… the list goes on ( i am new to all this and have chucked out a few posts.)

The one thing in all this i could not compute was the expressions in mostly
Academia, student land, SWP, TRA websites, demo footage and other commentary was the apparent “hurt, distress, upset, fear, betrayal,” narrative in public discourse from TRA point of view.

It strikes me that this is a deliberate and coordinate strategy by the TRA, movement (whomsoever) they are, to seek protection under international law, hence the puzzling accusations they make against GRC views, and what i deem to be the right wing press, in particular, views such as you are a fascist bigot…. Etc.

Racism and other dangerous views are not protected anywhere in law. So my train of thought is that this is a coordinated strategy, it bears all the hallmarks of it. So who is coordinating it? I cannot believe that it would not be so, based on my own experience .

I think it might be very important. Should i start another thread is this trodden ground please let me know

Am i

I don't think I've seen that view articulated elsewhere, so I'd say that this is an appropriate place, Karen.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · Today 12:41

That's a heck of a lot of cheese for 24 people, but then I recall when we'd go the pub after work in Amsterdam and many times the Dutch would order heaping great plates of cheese cubes to share and they all got eaten.

It's not a Dutch vessel, we're just doing a survey in Dutch waters; we'll be moving to British waters in a few days. We have a very international crew, including one Russian woman and one Ukrainian woman (the only women onboard).

They seem to get along quite well.

Fink · Today 16:22

I think it's not an excessive amount either. I just bought 1.3kg of raclette for this evening.

What is raclette, exactly? I've never had it, although I've been tempted by the stand at Tynemouth Market. I didn't want to spend £8 on something and find I didn't like it...