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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion therapy to be banned - Sunak

200 replies

BeetleDeuce · 19/10/2023 14:52

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/rishi-sunak-ban-gay-and-trans-conversion-practices

Apparently Sunak to add this to the King’s Speech, banning conversion therapies for trans and gay people.

This is a potential nightmare for counsellors/psychotherapists/NHS services who want to explore trans people’s experiences of trauma and other sources of gender dysphoria. It basically means “affirming only” as far as I can tell. This is exactly why this was always a bad idea.

Sunak to push ahead with delayed ban on gay and trans conversion practices

Prime minister to include draft bill banning conversion practices in king’s speech, sources confirm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/rishi-sunak-ban-gay-and-trans-conversion-practices

OP posts:
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TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:26

The best thing that could happen now is the 1922 Committee get enough Votes of No Confidence in. Sunak goes and we go to GE asap with the new Tory leader.

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 22:26

ArabellaScott · 21/10/2023 22:23

If anyone's unsure of what might constitute 'conversion therapy', I've seen varous people on Twitter suggest Dr Hakeem is a 'conversion therapist'.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4924897-4924897-dr-hakeem-speaks-the-truth-again

Bio:

Biography

Born in North Wales and educated at Rydal School before studying Medicine at University College London. Completed House Officer posts in Medicine and Surgery at London and Glasgow teaching hospitals. Completed Senior House Officer training in Psychiatry on the Royal Free Hospital training scheme and gained membership of The Royal College of Psychiatrists.
Completed Higher Specialist Training in Forensic Psychiatry and Psychotherapy at The Tavistock and Portman Clinics alongside a Kleinian full training analysis.
Following his individual psychoanalytic psychotherapy training he then trained as a Group Analyst at The Institute of Group Analysis, London (IGA) and completed an MSc in Group Analysis at Birkbeck University for which he was awarded a distinction.
Dr Az Hakeem worked as a Consultant Psychiatrist in General Psychiatry & Psychotherapy at Camden & Islington and in Forensic Psychotherapy at The Portman Clinic where he worked for 12 years until 2012. During 2012 he completed a one year sabbatical in Sydney, Australia. He remains a senior lecturer in Psychiatry at the University of New South Wales. In addition to his clinical work, Dr Az Hakeem has worked as a consultant to the media on a number of TV programmes both on and off screen.
In 2011, in recognition of his contribution to Psychiatry Dr Az Hakeem was awarded Fellowship to The Royal College of Psychiatrists. In recognition of his contribution to Psychiatry and specialist Psychotherapy.
After over 15 years working in the NHS, Dr Hakeem now works exclusively in private practice and he was a Consultant at The Priory Hospital Roehampton for eight years.
In 2017 Dr Az Hakeem became part of The Shaw Mind Foundation for whom he is a Founder, Professional Patron and Ambassador. The Shaw Mind Foundation is an exciting mental health charity working synergistically with schools and workplaces along with other existing mental health charities to increase awareness and reduce stigma in relation to mental health.
2019 also saw Dr Hakeem’s appointment as Honorary Associate Clinical Professor at University College London (UCL) Medical School.

Qualifications

Medicine MBBS : University College London
Fellow of The Royal College of Psychiatrists
CCST in Forensic Psychiatry
CCST in Psychotherapy
MSc Group Analysis

Training

University College London
The Royal College of Psychiatrists
Royal Free Hospital Training Scheme
The Tavistock Centre
The Portman Clinic
The Anna Freud Centre
The Institute of Group Analysis
Birkbeck University

Source:

http://www.drazhakeem.com/about/

The inmates really have taken over the asylum.

ResisterRex · 21/10/2023 22:29

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:26

The best thing that could happen now is the 1922 Committee get enough Votes of No Confidence in. Sunak goes and we go to GE asap with the new Tory leader.

This isn't even 6th form common room level politics, as a comment. Ridiculous

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:30

Sunak goes and we go to GE asap with the new Tory leader.

I think this is an admission that even Sunak and has not very huge personality is a threat to the half cooked suet pudding that is Starmer.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:31

Sorry you find my posts about how the Tory government fucks over women today, boring and repetitive @IwantToRetire, but someone's got to put the feminist perspective forward.

ArabellaScott · 21/10/2023 22:36

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:30

Sunak goes and we go to GE asap with the new Tory leader.

I think this is an admission that even Sunak and has not very huge personality is a threat to the half cooked suet pudding that is Starmer.

😂

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:38

ResisterRex · 21/10/2023 22:29

This isn't even 6th form common room level politics, as a comment. Ridiculous

Letters have already gone in.
PM Sunak is only going with the Bill because TRA Tories have threatened to resign.
Cates has called for MPs who oppose the Bill to write to the whip and meet up on Monday. Will they be as brave as their TRA colleagues and threaten to resign? If not, the least I would expect is they add their names to the No Confidence list.

https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1715830969469428131

https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1715830969469428131

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:39

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:30

Sunak goes and we go to GE asap with the new Tory leader.

I think this is an admission that even Sunak and has not very huge personality is a threat to the half cooked suet pudding that is Starmer.

No, it's a statement that Sunak is a threat to women's rights.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:40

someone's got to put the feminist perspective forward

but your posts have nothing to do with feminism - they are banal party ding dong nothingness - they are the equivilent to just standing somewhere and shouting, "out, Out, Out"!!

Other contributors are constantly looking at how male dominated party politics do not include a female, let alone a feminist perspective.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:43

No, it's a statement that Sunak is a threat to women's right.

So in fact the Tories could be the saviour of women's rights with a different leader. So all this bleating about Labour is in fact whatabouterry, we just need (as if the country would put up with it) and Tory Party Leadership contest, where no doubt the Tory members would vote Truss back in!

ResisterRex · 21/10/2023 22:48

Letters have already gone in

OK. But:

x.com/politlcsuk/status/1715843211879465137?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

"If 15% of Tory MPs have already sent no-confidence letters, Brady will call a vote.

This is very unlikely though - we would be hearing a lot more about letters going in for this to happen straight away."

IF

And

VERY UNLIKELY

It's incredibly hard to believe that a government of any stripe would be brought down by a Bill that hasn't even reached the usual processes. This is important in respect of child protection for sure. But they locked us all up for months and months on end (covid) and even that abuse of power didn't bring the government down so it's extremely hard to believe this will.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:54

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 22:43

No, it's a statement that Sunak is a threat to women's right.

So in fact the Tories could be the saviour of women's rights with a different leader. So all this bleating about Labour is in fact whatabouterry, we just need (as if the country would put up with it) and Tory Party Leadership contest, where no doubt the Tory members would vote Truss back in!

No. The Tories are never and were never going be the saviour of women's rights. So they should go before they damage us further.

My posts here are critical of what this government's is doing to women. What can I say? I'm a feminist, not a Toryist.🤷‍♀️

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 23:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/10/2023 22:54

No. The Tories are never and were never going be the saviour of women's rights. So they should go before they damage us further.

My posts here are critical of what this government's is doing to women. What can I say? I'm a feminist, not a Toryist.🤷‍♀️

Edited

Check out Angela Rayner's fawning recently at Pink News awards, and tell us Labour will be the better bet for women re all things gender.

duc748 · 22/10/2023 00:02

It's a shitshow, isn't it? Like many here, I expect, I don't want another Tory government. But I fear Labour will be worse for women and children's rights. But it looks like we're getting a Labour govt anyway.

Bosky · 22/10/2023 02:15

ResisterRex · 21/10/2023 22:48

Letters have already gone in

OK. But:

x.com/politlcsuk/status/1715843211879465137?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

"If 15% of Tory MPs have already sent no-confidence letters, Brady will call a vote.

This is very unlikely though - we would be hearing a lot more about letters going in for this to happen straight away."

IF

And

VERY UNLIKELY

It's incredibly hard to believe that a government of any stripe would be brought down by a Bill that hasn't even reached the usual processes. This is important in respect of child protection for sure. But they locked us all up for months and months on end (covid) and even that abuse of power didn't bring the government down so it's extremely hard to believe this will.

It's incredibly hard to believe that a government of any stripe would be brought down by a Bill that hasn't even reached the usual processes.

It is utterly gobsmacking!

Is it that at least some of the Tory rebels genuinely think, despite all the evidence, that trans people in the UK are routinely being “exorcised” by religious fundamentalists and subjected to old-style “aversion therapy” as practiced on homosexuals?

I can’t believe that the likes of Crispin Blunt actually think that is true.

Is there a Parliamentary Research Briefing full of the usual bullshit that they are taking as gospel?

On the other hand, I can believe that there has been pressure on MPs at constituency level. There has been a massive push by TRAs to get this Bill though, using “LGBT Groups” in loads of voluntary membership organisations to make statements and encourage all their members to write to their MPs about the horrors that trans people are being subjected to by “conversion therapy”.

With some that I have come across, the “LGBT Group” seems to have been set up purely in response to the Conversion Therapy Bill and that is the only thing they are interested in. When I say “they” it is not clear in some cases whether there is actually more than one person in the “Group” that is setting the agenda for the whole organisation.

It reminded me very much of Quentin van Meter’s explanation of how professional medical bodies in the USA, and then globally, came to publish official positions on “trans issues” that were written by a small committee of activists and then rubber-stamped.

The horrible irony that it is predominantly a handful of gay men (with the occasional lesbian) who are driving this revoltingly homophobic exercise.

There aren’t “GC activists” in the same way because there aren’t GC organisations already funded and staffed to the hilt and then getting paid extra income to run training courses in how to recruit “GC allies”, to influence and lobby, etc.

This whole fucking shit-show is astroturfed to the max.

The actual grassroots is made up of gender critical women’s rights/feminist organisations running on a shoe-string and the limited time and energy of individuals, mostly mums and grandmothers, doing what they can, when they can without the benefit of being trained-up as activists.

We have seen how the “MillionMarchForChildren” across Canada was misrepresented and demonised but at the very least it must have alerted politicians to the scale and diversity of opposition to what is going on in schools - and that all those marchers are also voters.

Maybe we need something like that to wake up MPs getting nervous about hanging on to their seats come the General Election?

The terrible fraud of 'transgender medicine'

At the Teens4Truth Conference, Ft. Worth, TX, Nov. 18, 2017. A physician who was in the Johns Hopkins Univ. Hospital group where "transgender medicine" was d...

https://youtu.be/6mtQ1geeD_c?si=eSsN8zPSEnNt_Xua

Rudderneck · 22/10/2023 02:35

I think it's true that the public overall doesn't support creating a scenario where affirmation-only therapy is all that is available. And I think there are a lot more now who realize that's what's at stake.

It also would not be hard for the Tories to bring that more into the public eye for those who don't realize it.

So - are they likely really being fooled that not including gender "conversion therapy" would lose a substantial number of votes? I tend to think that's not quite what is going on.

I could certainly imagine there is some division in the caucus, but I do not believe that is the source of the problem either.

Bosky · 22/10/2023 02:48

Rudderneck · 22/10/2023 02:35

I think it's true that the public overall doesn't support creating a scenario where affirmation-only therapy is all that is available. And I think there are a lot more now who realize that's what's at stake.

It also would not be hard for the Tories to bring that more into the public eye for those who don't realize it.

So - are they likely really being fooled that not including gender "conversion therapy" would lose a substantial number of votes? I tend to think that's not quite what is going on.

I could certainly imagine there is some division in the caucus, but I do not believe that is the source of the problem either.

I could certainly imagine there is some division in the caucus, but I do not believe that is the source of the problem either.

Like leaving the top off the toothpaste was not actually the reason that couple got divorced? More about his erectile dysfunction - but he’ll stick with the toothpaste story because he doesn’t want to talk about that! - and her fancy-man in the next village - and she definitely doesn’t want to talk about that!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 13:40

So - are they likely really being fooled that not including gender "conversion therapy" would lose a substantial number of votes? I tend to think that's not quite what is going on.

I'd say...

The majority of the population are aware of Isla Bryson and probably know a few "trans" teenagers, and don't buy into "anyone who thinks/says they are trans is trans".

But at the same time, they also have the vague awareness of the old Haley Cropper model of "sometimes a man can be born in a woman's body or vice versa".

They haven't thought about that in any critical way, it's an idea they just accept through cultural repetition of it as a fact like the fact that some people are gay. And Stonewall et al are working very hard to keep that impression in place.

So if they think about it at all, they'd vaguely assume that conversion therapy would be aimed at the latter group, because the former wouldn't be "real trans" to need converting. So since conversion therapy is only ever pushed on "real trans" it's as wrong to push conversion therapy on T as it is LGB.

So on one side, no great majority awareness of what's actually being proposed and the potential to damage a very large group of people. They'd disagree vehemently if they realised, but they don't.

On the other side, a very vocal group of activists who are invested in "anyone who thinks/says they are trans is trans" and want the banning of any exploration of when this might not be the case.

This group will loudly and publicly paint any difference between banning LGB conversion therapy and T conversion therapy as bigotry and transphobia and proof that the Tories are indeed the Nasty Party. And the general public, not seeing the nuances and thinking T is like LGB, will believe them.

So I think the policy equation being applied is simply that the noise the TRAs will make is more damaging to the party right now than the actual damage to people that the ban will lead to. By the time the damage hits the public consciousness responsibility will be blurred by changes in government, education, media and all the other factors that act on society's mores.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 13:53

If Sunak goes down, it will be because of his diabolical election results. Any letters going in on the Conversion Therapy Bill will simply add to those submitted for this reason.

He is a weak, unpopular, ineffective PM trying to herd a split, divided party who know they're out at the next GE.

RealityFan · 22/10/2023 13:58

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/10/2023 13:40

So - are they likely really being fooled that not including gender "conversion therapy" would lose a substantial number of votes? I tend to think that's not quite what is going on.

I'd say...

The majority of the population are aware of Isla Bryson and probably know a few "trans" teenagers, and don't buy into "anyone who thinks/says they are trans is trans".

But at the same time, they also have the vague awareness of the old Haley Cropper model of "sometimes a man can be born in a woman's body or vice versa".

They haven't thought about that in any critical way, it's an idea they just accept through cultural repetition of it as a fact like the fact that some people are gay. And Stonewall et al are working very hard to keep that impression in place.

So if they think about it at all, they'd vaguely assume that conversion therapy would be aimed at the latter group, because the former wouldn't be "real trans" to need converting. So since conversion therapy is only ever pushed on "real trans" it's as wrong to push conversion therapy on T as it is LGB.

So on one side, no great majority awareness of what's actually being proposed and the potential to damage a very large group of people. They'd disagree vehemently if they realised, but they don't.

On the other side, a very vocal group of activists who are invested in "anyone who thinks/says they are trans is trans" and want the banning of any exploration of when this might not be the case.

This group will loudly and publicly paint any difference between banning LGB conversion therapy and T conversion therapy as bigotry and transphobia and proof that the Tories are indeed the Nasty Party. And the general public, not seeing the nuances and thinking T is like LGB, will believe them.

So I think the policy equation being applied is simply that the noise the TRAs will make is more damaging to the party right now than the actual damage to people that the ban will lead to. By the time the damage hits the public consciousness responsibility will be blurred by changes in government, education, media and all the other factors that act on society's mores.

More irrefutable evidence that Stonewall and the ACLU etc piggy-backing the TQ+ to the LGB was the single cleverest thing ever.

Imagine a world where a seperate organisation had to come into being to represent the TQ+ and fight for stuff like Self ID, trans conversion bans etc. Their job would be massively more difficult, indeed they'd make very little progress.

But as it is, Stonewall, the Labour Party etc, can conflate LGB sex based rights with TQ+ non sex based rights, and effectively make the evil of gay conversion amount to no difference morally with trans conversion.

Watching the faces of previously pro trans conversion ban opinion holders totally change when you finally get across that trans affirmation is in so many cases gay conversion, is one of the slam dunk experiences in being a GC compelled to talk to people about this.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 14:00

By etc. do you mean the current Tory government? Because this is a Tory Bill @RealityFan.

bombastix · 22/10/2023 14:04

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 13:53

If Sunak goes down, it will be because of his diabolical election results. Any letters going in on the Conversion Therapy Bill will simply add to those submitted for this reason.

He is a weak, unpopular, ineffective PM trying to herd a split, divided party who know they're out at the next GE.

This bill is currently doing the Hokey Cokey.

But it does tell you something. The idea of changing the law to address single sex provision and trans guidance is a point where no politicial party has a clear position. And from that, you can expect press releases, sabre rattling etc but not one substantive legal change to address the concerns we talk about here. Our politicians cannot decide whether it benefits them or not, and if there is any ambiguity on personal political benefit you will get no positive action.

RealityFan · 22/10/2023 14:24

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 14:00

By etc. do you mean the current Tory government? Because this is a Tory Bill @RealityFan.

Edited

Yes. The TRA lobby in the Tory party may be as strong as that in Labour. It's just that there's more GC opinion in the Conservative party to counterbalance, as seen at that extra-parliamentary day of debate some months back.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 16:36

This isn't about the ratio of TRAs. This is about a CURRENT TORY BILL THAT COULD MAKE IT INTO THE KING'S SPEECH!!!

It needs to be stopped NOW. Not after the next GE.

RealityFan · 22/10/2023 16:45

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/10/2023 16:36

This isn't about the ratio of TRAs. This is about a CURRENT TORY BILL THAT COULD MAKE IT INTO THE KING'S SPEECH!!!

It needs to be stopped NOW. Not after the next GE.

Indeed, there are reliable reports that TRA lobbying is pushing for any and all talking therapies/watchful waiting to be expressly outlawed.