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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion therapy to be banned - Sunak

200 replies

BeetleDeuce · 19/10/2023 14:52

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/rishi-sunak-ban-gay-and-trans-conversion-practices

Apparently Sunak to add this to the King’s Speech, banning conversion therapies for trans and gay people.

This is a potential nightmare for counsellors/psychotherapists/NHS services who want to explore trans people’s experiences of trauma and other sources of gender dysphoria. It basically means “affirming only” as far as I can tell. This is exactly why this was always a bad idea.

Sunak to push ahead with delayed ban on gay and trans conversion practices

Prime minister to include draft bill banning conversion practices in king’s speech, sources confirm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/rishi-sunak-ban-gay-and-trans-conversion-practices

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Datun · 20/10/2023 11:25

literalviolence · 19/10/2023 23:32

Radical acceptance of a child's or vulnerable person's gender declaration is conversion therapy. What is needed it proper definitions.

Quite.

We need a definition of transgender. Which obviously can't be having been born in the wrong body.

Since I've yet to see one that makes even the slightest bit of sense, and doesn't move every time you blink, that should be rather interesting.

And yes, Cass. Social transition being the biggest indicator of progression to puberty blockers and cross sex hormones and becoming a lifelong medical patient. It's not, as she says, a neutral intervention.

Are HCPs going to be forced into a non-neutral intervention, against their own opinion and the child's best interests?

And who's going to pay for the subsequent lawsuits?

Viviennemary · 20/10/2023 11:33

I absolutely agree. There will be a huge swathe of folk suing the NHS when they regret having surgery in years to come.

Froodwithatowel · 20/10/2023 12:44

ResisterRex · 20/10/2023 10:30

A Stonewalled civil service might not be able to force ministers but it could easily omit information, leading to government actions happening or not happening by way of not having all the information you need. Or information that's wrongly weighted being given to you. Eg this on the conversion therapy data

x.com/twisterfilm/status/1372667709746470912?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Worth noting how many MP's aids turned out to be controlling their access to information and quietly deleting and binning information they did not want the MP to see. Which came to light when every MP was sent a copy of 'Trans' and a number of MPs then realised their copy had been quietly got rid of by Stonewalled staff. This is on record.

Many emails and letters to MPs have likely gone the same way.

IwantToRetire · 20/10/2023 16:16

Just for information, LGB Alliance have issued a statement.

Which includes:

Proper pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill
We would urge the Government to consult widely. We will work with this Government, or any Government, that centres the needs of young people.
More research and resources for detransitioners
The number of those who detransition or desist from their trans identity will continue to rise. We must put plans in place to deliver appropriate support. Currently, there is none.
Decoupling of LGB and QT+ in legislation and research
A person’s orientation as lesbian, gay or bisexual is unrelated to gender dysphoria or to those who consider themselves, for example, non-binary, gender fluid or queer. It serves neither group well to treat them as a homogeneous group with identical needs.

Full statement https://lgballiance.org.uk/statement-on-the-proposed-tabling-of-a-conversion-practices-bill/

PlanetJanette · 20/10/2023 16:43

IwantToRetire · 20/10/2023 16:16

Just for information, LGB Alliance have issued a statement.

Which includes:

Proper pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill
We would urge the Government to consult widely. We will work with this Government, or any Government, that centres the needs of young people.
More research and resources for detransitioners
The number of those who detransition or desist from their trans identity will continue to rise. We must put plans in place to deliver appropriate support. Currently, there is none.
Decoupling of LGB and QT+ in legislation and research
A person’s orientation as lesbian, gay or bisexual is unrelated to gender dysphoria or to those who consider themselves, for example, non-binary, gender fluid or queer. It serves neither group well to treat them as a homogeneous group with identical needs.

Full statement https://lgballiance.org.uk/statement-on-the-proposed-tabling-of-a-conversion-practices-bill/

The last bullet, for one thing, is nonsense.

Lots of gay and lesbian people also identify as queer or consider that they fall under the queer umbrella. Just because some do not (as they are perfectly entitled to) doesn't invalidate the the sexual orientations or identities of others.

PlanetJanette · 20/10/2023 16:49

PaperWalkAndTalk · 20/10/2023 10:18

So a man who works inside government has no links to any other person who works in government?

It has been said before that Brand's husband wasn't the direct source of Partygate, doesn't mean that his connections weren't the source though.

Do you know how many civil servants there are? Not far off half a million of them.

Do you think none of them are allowed to be married to journalists?

What makes you think Brand's husband had contacts that were familiar with partygate? Not much connection between the Geospatial Commission and No 10 - Brand would probably have better intel if his husband was a barman at the Red Lion.

PlanetJanette · 20/10/2023 16:49

PaperWalkAndTalk · 20/10/2023 10:20

Have you not followed politics for the past few years? Civil servants openly revolt against the politicians and many have been forced out due to the civil servants.

A Stonewalled civil service can easily force ministers into these decisions.

How many ministers have been 'forced out' by civil servants?

Let's compare that to how many civil servants have been forced out by ministers.

ResisterRex · 20/10/2023 16:51

IwantToRetire · 20/10/2023 16:16

Just for information, LGB Alliance have issued a statement.

Which includes:

Proper pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill
We would urge the Government to consult widely. We will work with this Government, or any Government, that centres the needs of young people.
More research and resources for detransitioners
The number of those who detransition or desist from their trans identity will continue to rise. We must put plans in place to deliver appropriate support. Currently, there is none.
Decoupling of LGB and QT+ in legislation and research
A person’s orientation as lesbian, gay or bisexual is unrelated to gender dysphoria or to those who consider themselves, for example, non-binary, gender fluid or queer. It serves neither group well to treat them as a homogeneous group with identical needs.

Full statement https://lgballiance.org.uk/statement-on-the-proposed-tabling-of-a-conversion-practices-bill/

This is a good, clear, compassionate and nonsense-free statement.

PlanetJanette · 20/10/2023 16:52

PaperWalkAndTalk · 20/10/2023 11:04

There is deliberate naivety around this.

You have Paul Brand, an ITV journalist who is patron of LGBT charities, who seems to be allowed by ITV to feature excessive coverage of this issue.
He has a partner, who has worked for the civil service, and will have close ties with others inside the civil service. If you work in the civil service and you know someone in another department who had a journalist for a husband, you'd clearly get in contact with him to leak stuff, wouldn't you?

I don't know how many times we talk about husbands and wives of ministers getting good deals for their friends.

A Stonewalled civil service who will exert pressure on ministers.

Lobbying by activists to local MPs.

It's very easy to see how this has happened.

If you work in the civil service and want to leak, you'd just go straight to a journalist.

Do you seriously think someone close to events in No 10 needed to find someone in the Geospatial Commission who was married to a journalist, rather than just talking to any number of journalists who will happily answer the phone to any well connected civil servant.

As I said - these conspiracy theories seem to be based on total ignorance of how government (and media) actually work.

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2023 17:24

@PlanetJanette, many here are Tory supporters who still can't get their heads around the fact their beloved party did this. So they flail around looking for someone else to blame.

That Trans has been put back in to the Conversion Therapy Bill should be of no surprise, it was mentioned months ago.

Rudderneck · 20/10/2023 18:05

It would be really useful to know what went on here.

It seems pretty clear that Sunak understood what the problem with this would be. And clearly some important ministers understand.

So is it a matter of an inter-party dispute, or something has changed and they think they can write it in a way that will work, or is there some other pressure being applied, say from the civil service as some have suggested?

Personally I think the whole thing reels of bad legislation, with or without the gender component.

ResisterRex · 20/10/2023 18:46

If you work in the civil service and want to leak, you'd just go straight to a journalist

Mmm yeah just any old journalist. Totally would work. They wouldn't have to have an interest in your topic, or a relationship with you, or for you to be able to trust that they wouldn't spike it. 100% how it works.

IwantToRetire · 20/10/2023 20:11

Some one's started a new thread for this article, but am adding link to this thread as it covers the same ground. But is unable to explain, any more than any other article or FWR, why Sunak has changed his mind. And yes it is the DT. And yes it is DH!!

On the face of it, it sounds reasonable. But the truth is that the Bill is a Trojan Horse, and the radical gender ideologues championing it know as much. It goes without saying: nobody wants to see gay people bullied or brainwashed into being 'straight'.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12651173/People-regret-transitioning-says-Debbie-Hayton.html

'I have met far too many who regret transitioning,' says Debbie Hayton

Twelve years ago, I was a happily married, middle-aged man with a good job and three children. But something was wrong. I had convinced myself that I had been born into the wrong sex.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12651173/People-regret-transitioning-says-Debbie-Hayton.html

PlanetJanette · 20/10/2023 20:12

ResisterRex · 20/10/2023 18:46

If you work in the civil service and want to leak, you'd just go straight to a journalist

Mmm yeah just any old journalist. Totally would work. They wouldn't have to have an interest in your topic, or a relationship with you, or for you to be able to trust that they wouldn't spike it. 100% how it works.

No - obviously not ‘just any journalist’. You’re not going to go to the editor of Anglers Weekly.

But Westminster is a small place - political journalists and senior civil servants and political figures all work and socialise in the same square mile. Anyone who wants to leak has a very easy route to do so. Of course most leaks don’t come from the civil service but those that do don’t depend on someone knowing the husband of a random deputy director on the Geospatial Commission is a journalist.

DameMaud · 20/10/2023 22:31

Just adding this here: A brief, distilled summary of the issue around trans/gay - from the Gender Dysphoria Alliance (Tansparency podcast) by Aaron Kimberley (trans ftm). Straightforward and could be useful in the conversation with people unable to see the issue perhaps? Esp as from someone trans identified.

A Brief History of Trans (2023)

https://youtu.be/9IEyJonpf6U?si=voDty9S5LujCbKPm

DameMaud · 20/10/2023 22:46

It's so difficult to simplify and distill the contradictions for people who haven't been deep diving- I think this is a pretty good distillation for 6 minutes! And from someone with 'lived experience'. Just in case people want to add to their library of helpful resources if people are open enough to ask you for more info on your stance- as I have occasionally had.
I often find it hard to point to things that are at a level that someone new to the debate wouldn't find confusing/overwhelming/shocking- so I appreciated the simplicity of this

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2023 23:59

People are unsure why he changed his mind? Really?Hmm

RealityFan · 21/10/2023 00:13

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/10/2023 23:59

People are unsure why he changed his mind? Really?Hmm

If you don't have a mind, there is no mind to change. You become simply a reed bending in the wind.

I never trusted Sunak. When he was merely chancellor, he was asked what is a woman, and he gave what I consider a worse answer than the "99%" one given by Starmer at the same time.

That is, no answer at all, he deferred back to PM Johnson. He showed himself to be unprincipled, a coward, totally unintelligent.

Ever since then his PR people have told him there's mileage in saying a woman is an adult human female, and he's suddenly up for the fight.

But it's all fake, he's fake, and now we have the denouement of the Tories being asleep at the wheel with the Stonewallification of civic society as the last thing he does to cap 14 years of Tory failure, is to enact a trans conversion ban.

He's doing this, because it's consistent with his lack of principle and rigor. A fitting end to a Conservative govt who couldn't even conserve women's rights.

bombastix · 21/10/2023 00:29

Well if they make actual law about what "conversion therapy" is it will be like pouring oil on the fire.

But my guess is that this will be a bare bill, where conversion therapy itself will be banned, and then the Government will take a power to issue guidance as to what that actually is.

Very cynical, gets the box ticked while doing nothing.

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2023 00:38

Very cynical, gets the box ticked while doing nothing.

Could well be, and in reality with so many other issues, I doubt it will get beyond draft form.

But that might be interesting as it might draw out those working in the background.

Bosky · 21/10/2023 06:34

PaperWalkAndTalk · 19/10/2023 19:39

The other thing that this legislation does is to enshrine gender identity into law.

The equalities act is clear about transsexuals (people who have had medical intervention), but gender identity is deliberately ambiguous so that it can include stuff like "non-binary" as an identity that can't be altered.

It just baffles me that instead of changing someone's thinking, it is much better to alter someone's entire body (because that's the apparent opposite of conversion therapy 🙄).

The equalities act is clear about transsexuals (people who have had medical intervention)

On the contrary, The Equality Act is clear that transsexuals have not necessarily had any medical intervention:

7 Gender reassignment

(1) A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2) A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

(3) In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7?timeline=false

So a person is a transsexual from the point at which they propose to “undergo a process (or part of a process)” etc.

This ”process (or part of a process)” that they are proposing, are undergoing or have undergone, need not involve any physiological changes, it may merely involve changing other (non-physiological) “attributes of sex”.

I do not know whether a haircut or growing one’s hair out would count as “physiological” or not but ”other attributes of sex” is a reference back to the GRA2004, where evidence includes documentation such as changing the name on your gas bill and people referring to you by opposite-sex pronouns.

This comes from cases taken to the European Court of Human Rights (I hope I have got that right because there were also relevant cases taken to the European Court of Justice).

Some of those cases refer to “sex identity”, which is equivalent to what is now referred to as “gender identity”. “Transsexualism” is referred to as a medical condition affecting self-perception, rather than to the outcome of chemically and/or surgically changed “physiology”.

The “other attributes of sex” referred to include manner of dress and behaving in a way that leads others to treat a person as if they are the opposite sex. It was taken as read that the only reason they would do this is that the transsexual person “passed” as the opposite sex, rather than that people were being kind or that they bought into the idea that thinking you are the opposite sex means you are actually the opposite sex.

Essentially, as far as The Equality Act is concerned, a transsexual is someone who simply believes that they are the opposite sex.

The GRA2004 requires that two doctors or a doctor and clinical psychologist confirm that they believe the person is telling the truth about this. It also requires some evidence that the person has made some sort of effort to “live” as the opposite sex. Gas bill, pronouns in your bio, etc.

This is the list of documents suggested:

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/what-documents-you-need

The Equality Act 2010 does not require any of that proof. All that the EA2010 requires is that a person is protected from being discriminated against by others who know that the person is a transsexual or believe that that the person is a transsexual.

See this example in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes:

“A person who was born physically female decides to spend the rest of her life as a man. He starts and continues to live as a man. He decides not to seek medical advice as he successfully ‘passes’ as a man without the need for any medical intervention. He would have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment for the purposes of the Act.”

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/4

No medical intervention and no mention of a Gender Recognition Certificate because there is no need for either.

Sex Matters has published a good explanation:

sex-matters.org/resources/faqs-gender-reassignment/

The sleight of hand by which “transsexual” is now meant to be read as “transgender” causes even more problems. “Transgender” is a slippery, amorphous term that has led to a court case finding that a person who said they are “gender fluid” and “non-binary” was covered under the Equality Act protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” although this was not a legally-binding precedent.

sex-matters.org/posts/case-law/taylor-v-jaguar-land-rover/

“Gender fluidity” and “non-binary” appeared in that case to manifest itself in a propensity for random cross-dressing.

Although “trans” seems to be an increasingly popular prefix, the term “transvestite”, which literally means “cross dresser”, has been deemed just as verboten as “transsexual”. Presumably in an effort to memory-hole or create distance from research evidence and clinical knowledge about transvestic fetishism?

IMHO the GRA2004 and the EA2010 protected characteristic of gender reassignment both need to be binned because of their increasingly adverse impacts on women and children.

IncomingTraffic · 21/10/2023 07:50

Why does there have to be some sort of conspiracy here. It’s far more likely that sunak simply doesn’t have a coherent position or policy and is simply being reactive to things framed as ‘oh no. Voters don’t like this!’

Which is why you get him standing up saying facile stuff about definitions of women and women’s rights and then insisting that there must be a ban on conversion therapy. He simply hasn’t thought any of it through and he’s surrounded by people who don’t want to.

bombastix · 21/10/2023 07:57

He's not going to do anything coherent. It's more fake law. I mean it's another one of those bills that will be announced but never makes it.

After all, how long as he got? Any measure announced now is rather suspect. You have to introduce and get a bill through. That is usually a year plus.

IncomingTraffic · 21/10/2023 08:13

If we want to try to construct a ‘conspiracy’ here, the most likely scenario is that sunak sees this as a fantastic mess to set in motion and then leave a Labour government to have to deal with.

bombastix · 21/10/2023 08:23

As soon as an election is called, the bill will fail (ie is dropped) from Parliament. Nobody has to do anything then do they?

Yeah. It's literally the biggest bunch of horseshit along with all other measures like Badenoch with her guidance. All played to the gallery, no delivery.