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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JKRowling. Prepared to go to prison for women's rights.

165 replies

Cismyfatarse · 18/10/2023 20:34

Share token here:

JK Rowling: I’ll happily go to prison for women’s rights

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/32d91356-6d9b-11ee-b5d7-5487922f056f?shareToken=f1594da48d0791b9d9a9e2a6cd8965c2. Hopefully this works for everyone. She really is a Queen.

OP posts:
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5
Datun · 20/10/2023 11:40

It seems to me that these 'emotional needs' are those of men and they are paramount, obvs. And if women can be forced to supply them, then it's all good.

Far from being a distinction between men and transwomen, they look pretty identical to me.

Froodwithatowel · 20/10/2023 12:35

AlphaTransWoman · 19/10/2023 23:13

Trans women may have similar emotional needs to other women even though they are physically male. The question is how to meet these, and ensure their safety and dignity, without putting other women at risk by admitting them to female prisons.

What emotional needs do TW have that are different to the emotional needs of other male people but similar to female people?

Since when were decisions on the sex based prison estate organised around emotional needs?

I'm sorry, this is delusional. TW prisoners may very well be vulnerable and have particular needs, and absolutely those needs should be met, properly, thoroughly. And the needs of male prisoners with MH issues, which is an appalling problem, and the needs of gay male prisoners, and the needs of elderly male prisoners, talk to someone who works in the prison system and they will talk at you for a long time, often with a lot of care and concern, for the many very vulnerable men they support. Privacy, dignity and safety should be a basic human right for everyone, male and female.

No male need ever requires the use of female people's bodies as a resource. Because lets be honest about this, it isn't the space that's wanted. That expensive special wing in a women's prison was created for TW prisoners who did not risk assess (at the time) as safe enough to inflict on women to meet the wish to be on the female estate. It was never used, because it was not about the space it was about the right to physical access to women's bodies. The TW and their lawyers and this political lobby kicked off until those TW got access to women prisoners. And that probably played a large part, along with the one in pink leggings, in pushing the government to say, right, no male offenders with intact genitals and/or a history of sexual or violent crime. And as it turns out - that pretty much ruled out all of them.

And yes, it is that ugly in being about a male right to women's bodies, because no other part of these women is of any interest. Not their feelings, their emotional needs, their sense of self, their beliefs and identities, their wishes for their best lives and authentic selves, their definition of sexuality - no, it's about how their physical body meets the need of the male, whether it's as a prop in the room to 'be with other women' or in the case of White at al, to make use of for getting the sexual abuse jollies buzz.

I don't draw a line between where it's 'ok' to use women and where it becomes 'oh that's getting a bit grim now' - it's all using women's bodies, that can never be acceptable. And there's a pattern in all of this. In the refusal to permit women accessible female only spaces or health care or rape crisis service or escape from a life threatening relationship in along side accessible mixed sex 'womens' ones, which we'd all be fine with - in the refusal to permit women to be homosexual openly and proudly and say 'my personal choice is no male of any identity'. All of it is about anger where a woman wishes to control access to her body preventing use in a way that a male person feels they have special entitlement to. I'm done with the abuse of this agenda towards women and I am absolutely done with special pleading.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 20/10/2023 17:35

No male need ever requires the use of female people's bodies as a resource.

"The Sages insisted: Let him die, and she may not converse with him behind a fence." Sanhedrin 75a verse 2

Sanhedrin 75a:2

§ Apropos the discussion of the obligation to allow oneself to be killed rather than engage in forbidden sexual intercourse, the Gemara notes that Rav Yehuda...

https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.75a.2?lang=bi

RufustheFactualReindeer · 20/10/2023 18:17

HMP Low Newton (the highest security women's prison in the UK) has an extensive set of gardens and a petting zoo. I don't think they have those at Belmarsh

seems they built a petting zoo/garden at hmp hindley in 2021, not sure its still open obviously

forgotmyusername1 · 20/10/2023 19:19

J k Rowling be like...

JKRowling.  Prepared to go to prison for women's rights.
Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 14:19

It's trivial, but formerly amusing "satirical" site The Onion had another go at J.K. Rowling this week: Everything J.K. Rowling Would Be Willing To Do To Protect Her Anti-Trans Views. The first slide is good, but the rest is sour and nasty, and it isn't worth wading through.

Some of the reactions on Twitter/X have been captured by Twitchy: 'Opposite of Funny': The Onion's Attack on J.K. Rowling Is All FAIL.

RoyalCorgi · 25/10/2023 14:36

Late to the thread, but is there any evidence that Labour has plans to make misgendering a criminal offence, let alone send offenders to prison for two years? The Daily Mail article didn't cite a source.

MavisMcMinty · 25/10/2023 14:53

It wouldn’t fly, it won’t happen, regardless of whether or not they intend it to.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 14:56

I don't think even Labour would be stupid enough to put that in their manifesto.

AlphaTransWoman · 25/10/2023 14:58

Much as being misgendered annoys me, even I think that would be a silly idea.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 15:16

Not really just a "silly idea". An oppressive attack on people's fundamental right to freedom of speech and belief.

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:23

RoyalCorgi · 25/10/2023 14:36

Late to the thread, but is there any evidence that Labour has plans to make misgendering a criminal offence, let alone send offenders to prison for two years? The Daily Mail article didn't cite a source.

I haven't read the whole thread or the DM piece, but "misgendering" (actually correctly gendering) could be made an offence by Labour on a par with racial abuse according to this article on GB News: Row erupts over Labour's 'insane Orwellian' plan for giving jail sentences for 'misgendering'.

It isn't entirely clear whether they intend it to be made an offence by itself, or an aggravating factor as part of another offence such as assault or supposed harassment.

MavisMcMinty · 25/10/2023 15:38

I just googled, and would lose my NHS pension whilst in prison/on remand, otherwise I too would be prepared to go to prison over this.

If they made it a criminal offence I’d feel even more obliged to “misgender” people, doesn’t Labour understand human nature?

They can’t imprison us all, FFS.

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:51

They can’t imprison us all, FFS.

They won't need to. A few mercilessly punished examples will stand as warnings to the rest of us. They won't even need to successfully prosecute and jail anyone.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 15:59

Genesis1v27 · 25/10/2023 15:23

I haven't read the whole thread or the DM piece, but "misgendering" (actually correctly gendering) could be made an offence by Labour on a par with racial abuse according to this article on GB News: Row erupts over Labour's 'insane Orwellian' plan for giving jail sentences for 'misgendering'.

It isn't entirely clear whether they intend it to be made an offence by itself, or an aggravating factor as part of another offence such as assault or supposed harassment.

Luckily my time on Mumsnet has allowed me to hone my skills in talking extensively about trans identifying individuals without using any gendered pronouns to refer to them at all.

Prosecute that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 16:07

Prosecute that.

I firmly believe they would then move on to prosecution of anything not sufficiently respectful and validating. Because it isn't about "gender", it's about control.

MargotBamborough · 25/10/2023 16:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 16:07

Prosecute that.

I firmly believe they would then move on to prosecution of anything not sufficiently respectful and validating. Because it isn't about "gender", it's about control.

They won't win.

People are already fed up with this bullshit.

I think in other countries which have fully embraced gender ideology they were a bit cleverer about it. They quietly changed the laws, captured the younger generations and then started being truly objectionable.

In the UK, well, I think on a basic level British people are mostly decent but have quite low tolerance for nonsense, and the trans rights lobby have also gone in too hard and too fast with their demands, at a point where they have not yet secured the changes in legislation they are seeking.

Now the public is becoming increasingly aware of issues like Isla Bryson, and increasingly naffed off with being told to declare their pronouns, I think any major changes in legislation of this nature have the potential to make things really kick off. I hope so, anyway.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/10/2023 16:19

I think more than anywhere the U.K. has exposed the nature of it to the world, because our media isn't entirely captured and is international, and there has been so much pushback, mostly from women, here, and the response by TRAs to that is always very enlightening.

AutumnCrow · 25/10/2023 16:28

Froodwithatowel · 20/10/2023 12:35

What emotional needs do TW have that are different to the emotional needs of other male people but similar to female people?

Since when were decisions on the sex based prison estate organised around emotional needs?

I'm sorry, this is delusional. TW prisoners may very well be vulnerable and have particular needs, and absolutely those needs should be met, properly, thoroughly. And the needs of male prisoners with MH issues, which is an appalling problem, and the needs of gay male prisoners, and the needs of elderly male prisoners, talk to someone who works in the prison system and they will talk at you for a long time, often with a lot of care and concern, for the many very vulnerable men they support. Privacy, dignity and safety should be a basic human right for everyone, male and female.

No male need ever requires the use of female people's bodies as a resource. Because lets be honest about this, it isn't the space that's wanted. That expensive special wing in a women's prison was created for TW prisoners who did not risk assess (at the time) as safe enough to inflict on women to meet the wish to be on the female estate. It was never used, because it was not about the space it was about the right to physical access to women's bodies. The TW and their lawyers and this political lobby kicked off until those TW got access to women prisoners. And that probably played a large part, along with the one in pink leggings, in pushing the government to say, right, no male offenders with intact genitals and/or a history of sexual or violent crime. And as it turns out - that pretty much ruled out all of them.

And yes, it is that ugly in being about a male right to women's bodies, because no other part of these women is of any interest. Not their feelings, their emotional needs, their sense of self, their beliefs and identities, their wishes for their best lives and authentic selves, their definition of sexuality - no, it's about how their physical body meets the need of the male, whether it's as a prop in the room to 'be with other women' or in the case of White at al, to make use of for getting the sexual abuse jollies buzz.

I don't draw a line between where it's 'ok' to use women and where it becomes 'oh that's getting a bit grim now' - it's all using women's bodies, that can never be acceptable. And there's a pattern in all of this. In the refusal to permit women accessible female only spaces or health care or rape crisis service or escape from a life threatening relationship in along side accessible mixed sex 'womens' ones, which we'd all be fine with - in the refusal to permit women to be homosexual openly and proudly and say 'my personal choice is no male of any identity'. All of it is about anger where a woman wishes to control access to her body preventing use in a way that a male person feels they have special entitlement to. I'm done with the abuse of this agenda towards women and I am absolutely done with special pleading.

Edited

Thanks for this really good long post @Froodwithatowel - it really gets to the heart of why 'goodwill' (i.e. female socialised acquiescence) is draining away.

RhannionKPSS · 25/10/2023 21:09

I firmly believe that if Labour choose Eddie Izzard as a candidate , for anywhere, it will be a clear sign that they don’t give a shiny shit about women’s rights and it will peak many, many more people.
I won’t be voting for them, and not one person in my circle, especially the women will vote for them. Most will spoil their votes.

Winnading · 25/10/2023 22:04

AutumnCrow · 20/10/2023 07:18

If everyone’s as physically buggered as me, it’ll need its own age-related massive hospital wing and a bank of wheelchairs, a decent gynae ward, a sensory impairment service, skin cancer unit, and dietician.

And I’d insist on the jail time, not a suspended sentence, so I can set up my own advice service in the library and win over the top dog with my usefulness.

This is a hill I will die on alongside you all and jk, and whilst I'm in that prison can I get all my many ailments fixed, new knees, ankles, a brain, etc? If so I'm gonna be the first to break this law just so I no longer have to wait on the NHS.

AutumnCrow · 25/10/2023 22:17

Winnading · 25/10/2023 22:04

This is a hill I will die on alongside you all and jk, and whilst I'm in that prison can I get all my many ailments fixed, new knees, ankles, a brain, etc? If so I'm gonna be the first to break this law just so I no longer have to wait on the NHS.

We would be exempt from council tax as well.

AlphaTransWoman · 25/10/2023 22:28

But how are we supposed to run the country if everyone who isn't a TRA is in jail?

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 25/10/2023 22:39

How the hell do you prove which 'dead naming' and wrong pronouns are deliberate and which are just people being a bit crap? In our wider circle of people who we have known for about 30 years we have one person who transitioned about 5 years ago and one person who changed their first name for none gender woo reasons about 10 years ago. To this day DH calls them both Old name, shit sorry erm um New name about 75% of the time. There is no malice, his brain just supplies the name he was using for the first 20+ years.

SidewaysOtter · 25/10/2023 23:23

AlphaTransWoman · 25/10/2023 22:28

But how are we supposed to run the country if everyone who isn't a TRA is in jail?

Never mind that, perhaps you could answer the many questions to you posed above regarding the emotional needs of transwomen compared to the emotional needs of adult human females.

Or do you not have an answer?