Labour want jail time for pronoun refuseniks - DM

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In normal times I’d think this couldn’t possibly be true but these days I wouldn’t put anything past Labour once they’re in power.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631243/Deliberately-calling-wrong-gender-pronouns-land-jail-TWO-YEARS-Labour.html

Life without Austerity, Brexit, Boris and Trusterfuck economics? Sounds OK to me. But that didn't happen.

The Tories have been in power for 13 years.
It was Tory PM Theresa May who put Self ID on the table back in 2017. Law, policy and guidance wrt Trans happened under and because of the Tories. FFS, even now, in 2023 this Conservative government are unwilling to provide the guidance to schools necessary to safeguard children and staff from the TRA agenda.

Why?

Julie Bindel seems to have a reasonably regular gig writing for the DM, along with a fair number of Guardian refugees.

Honestly, I wish people would apply a bit of critical thinking to reading media outlets.

Thats the point surely. The DM has a lot of content, with commentators often having opposing views. I enjoy being able to employ critical thinking. I quite like Sarah Vine, say, but find Boris Johnson out of touch and unreadable. The thing I dislike about the Guardian is its tendency to tell you how you should think.

Yet earlier in the week we heard there might not be enough room in prisons for a rapist because prisons are full.

Self ID was only dropped recently by Labour. That’s after all the women who challenged and showed political harm via Sturgeon and Starmer finally thought about it a bit

Only enough to say no one is talking about it though. Just hoping it can be spun and waffled away.

Thanks to all the women who got the shift. Not to the rest though who made it harder.

And we’re not there yet, so same again applies.

The DM article is pure false propaganda & should be reported, they can't even quote a single Labour source that wants a 2 year jail sentence BUT they do highlight a few examples of people charged and convicted under the current Govts laws, the max sentence is 2 years right now!!

@caringcarer Indeed, low level violent offenders are to be given community sentences and foreign criminals sent abroad but even after that, still a shortfall of 2000 prison places, perhaps this is why the govt wont send rapists for trial, let alone jail them.

Has self ID been dropped by Teressa May ? or Nick Gibb? (Education Minister)

On the DM at least it covers GC stuff but just blindly TRA as The Guardian or incapable as the BBC

If it were down to the centre left media it really would Starner’s dream. No one talking about it,

Sod that. Keep making people squirm until we get more for women.

They have, the tune changed on that a couple of months ago.

There was a point in time when EVERY party in this country was TWAW and supporting Self ID. Now all the Conservative activists are trying to convince us it was just Labour all along. Sorry mate, it's like the non-existent "meat tax." Pull the other one.

And not just Starmer but all the posters who tell us no one cares.

If they were right Sturgeon wouldn’t have led to the shift we see now. They won’t appreciate it still.

You are hearing the revised waffle version which is meaningless

Here’s Harriet Harmen the other day

'There's a question of what is a woman and what is a man. But I would say a woman is someone who is born a woman or someone who under the GRA 2004 is certified as having transitioned from a man to a woman'.
...
'I support the GRA and don't want to see it rolled back. We brought it forward for a very good reason'.

It will also have been lawyered. So if it's lies then the Labour Party can take action.

Also upthread, the legal framework for doing this was set out quite early on. As well as what's in their "VAWG" document.

The Conservatives. Why, does this some how invalidates my point that just because something seems to you at the time like something a government would never do it cannot happen?

In the last ten plus years it looks to me like we have been seeing ideas that were widely accepted being taken to their logical conclusions. Does the Labour Party now reject the idea that people have a basic human right to be referred to the way they want? They can tell us if they don’t but I think they do believe that. So I think that misgendering people will be criminalised by a Labour Government at some point in the future.

I assume everyone here is aware of the upcoming Scottish Hate Crime Bill?

The problem with it is not so much that 'misgendering' is illegal, its that there is no criteria or description of any act that is illegal, because it rests entirely on the perception of the person reporting (not necessarily the alleged victim).

Any person anywhere can report anyone for anything. Online. Anonymously. The police are duty bound to investigate, we have a new Hate Crime Hub and Hate Crime Champions to do so.

Yes, Scotland now officially have the Thought Police.

I would keep an eye out for this type of utterly batshit proposal.

Indeed.

Although Labour's Shadow Education Minister says she would scrap any school guidance the Tories produce and start all over again.

Why?

Th GRA and having ‘gender reassignment’ on the equality act are labour. Much of what else that has followed comes from those disasters. Plus if you think Self ID was raised purely by the Tories why do you think so many countries so quickly and simultaneously started introducing it?

We are quite straight talking here. The women on these boards are an example, women who do care rather than want it all to be glossed over. For them it’s the BBC or The Guardian thanks, that centre left media is ace.

We could swim against the tide but probably won’t because the people who will give votes to easier GRC and no single sex spaces are already championing the party who will provide it.

Never mind, I’m sure there’ll be events that bring it to the public’s attention again despite trying to shut that door.

Really? Anyone can report anyone anonymously and the police are duty bound to investigate? I didn’t think you could make anonymous complaints ever. To what extent do they have to investigate? Do they tell the person they’re under investigation and interview them in each case? Or could it be a 1 minute investigation where they decide it’s nonsense?

Yes. This is the new guidance for Police Scotland. I'll underline relevant sections and italicise my comments/headings:

https://www.scotland.police.uk/spa-media/5yagp2ye/hate-crime-national-guidance.doc

Anyone/anything:

'Police Scotland will record all hate crimes and hate incidents in terms of the following definitions:

Hate Incident - Any incident which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards a social group but which does not constitute a criminal offence (non-crime incident).

While it is accepted that not every hate report will amount to criminality, officers are required to take preventative and protective measures even when a non-criminal offence is apparent. Seemingly low level or minor events may in fact have a significant impact on the victim. Crime type alone does not necessarily dictate impact or consequences of the action. Repeated targeting of a person, whether by the same perpetrator or not, can lead to what is known as the ‘drip drip’ effect i.e. although seemingly minor incidents, the repeated nature could affect the person’s ability to cope. Each individual will be affected differently.

Hate Crime - A hate crime is any crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards a social group.

There are currently five social groups protected under hate crime legislation:
· Disability or presumed disability (any disability including physical disability, learning disability and mental health).
· Race or presumed race (any racial group, ethnic background or national origin, including countries within the UK and Gypsy / Traveller groups).
· Religion or presumed religion (any religious group, including those who have no faith).
· Sexual orientation or presumed sexual orientation (sexual orientation towards persons of the same sex or of the opposite sex or towards both).
· Transgender identity or presumed transgender identity (defined as transvestism, transsexualisms, intersexuality or having by virtue of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (c7), changed gender and any other gender identity that is not standard male or female gender identity. This refers to a whole range of people who find their gender identity or gender expression differs in some way, from the gender assumptions made by others about them when they were born).'

Without any evidence [again, my underlining]:

...
'the perception of the victim or any other person is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident or in recognising the malice element of a crime'
...

Reported online, anonymously:

'Hate Crime Online Reports

The online reporting facility is available to all members of the public via the Police Scotland website. These reports are received at Contact Command and Control Division Resolution Team for decryption. Staff within this team then assess the information and decide on the appropriate action to be taken. Victims and witnesses have the opportunity to report crimes anonymously and can specify if and how they wish to be contacted by police.'

Procedures:

'Online reports must be assessed using THRIVE and treated as if a call, the consideration of impact of the incident on the victim should be included in this process. For example, the incident or crime reported may appear to be very low level however due to it being hate related with the specific targeting of the individual or group because of who they are or who they are perceived to be the impact can be highly significant. This can have a huge bearing on any THRIVE assessment.

Where possible acknowledge receipt of the report and do so in all cases if received from a Third Party Reporting Centre. Carry out all enhanced checks and raise a STORM incident as required ensuring it accurately records the reporters preferred method of contact, special requirements or any other additional information. The full online form should be copied onto STORM before sending to the appropriate Area Control Room or Resolution Team. Where an incident is not required, consideration should be given to a SID log and where possible the reporter updated. A copy of all online hate crime reports should be e-mailed to the Diversity Unit'

Will you have to be a repeat hurty word offender or is once enough to get you locked up until you see the error of your misgendering ways?

Sorry, I've not copied out all the procedures, as they are extensive. Theyre all in that document, though.

Oh, people from other parts of the UK can report people in Scotland, too! Hooray!

'· Reporter resides in another part of the UK but was a victim of crime whilst in Scotland: Send details of the incident to the home force to note a statement and then it will be allocated to the relevant division for enquiry.
· Incidents on social media where the original reporter resides in another part of the UK but believes the suspect to reside in Scotland: Send details of the incident to the home force to note a statement and conduct appropriate enquiries. If the enquiries identify the crime occurred in Scotland, only then will it be sent back to Scotland.'

I guess this is the key part re investigation:

'Police Scotland has a duty to undertake a thorough investigation of all reported hate crime and hate incidents'

@ArabellaScott Well now I find myself guilty of what I’ve been criticising others for. Believing something couldn’t be true and would not happen because to me it seemed ridiculous. And you’re no it’s true and it is happening here is the proof.. Thanks I guess.

What strikes me is hate crime is used and expected to be understood

Not sure why we were asked to ignore the term earlier. And yes you’re right sounds bad

Quite honestly, this has been the trouble when I've tried to explain it to people. I say what I said and they're like 'nah, that can't be right'.

It is. Comes into force next year.

Police Scotland consulted with specific staff networks in order to draw up their guidelines….