Labour want jail time for pronoun refuseniks - DM

[mb2512cat]

In normal times I’d think this couldn’t possibly be true but these days I wouldn’t put anything past Labour once they’re in power.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631243/Deliberately-calling-wrong-gender-pronouns-land-jail-TWO-YEARS-Labour.html

@EasternStandard - respectfully i will no longer address your posts because they seem partial to me. A good discussion means responding on point. Thanks

For all those who are having a fainting fit at the DM link, here's another one:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/labour-anneliese-dodds-conservatives-government-people-b2426145.html

'We believe everyone deserves to be accepted without exception and treated with respect and dignity.

“That’s why we will tackle the rising tide of hate with stronger laws so those who carry out anti-LGBT+ hate crime get the tougher sentences they deserve.
“We will deliver where the Conservatives have failed by bringing in a full, no loopholes, trans-inclusive ban on conversion therapy.”'

Annaliese Dodds

@ArabellaScott - more drivel. I wonder if Dodds could define "hate crime" beyond "something which a pressure group has told me they find like". That is the problem in this debate

Fine by me. Your bias is making it hard to discuss anyway.

We believe everyone deserves to be accepted without exception and treated with respect and dignity.

Unless they're women who have needs or access requirements that conflict with the absolute primacy of freedom of self expression of men, women who want to be homosexual, or people who care about safeguarding.

Then we'll criminalise you.

It's not even coherent batshit.

"don't like"

'Removal of the presumption of contact when there has been domestic abuse

The Children’s Act 1989 provides the presumption that involvement from both
parents is in the best interests of the child. However, Practice Direction 12J of the
Family Procedure Rules states that the court must also have consideration of
domestic abuse.
An inconsistent understanding of Practice Direction 12J has led to unsafe contact arrangements between children and perpetrators of domestic abuse. In one study, two thirds of child contact cases involved allegations of domestic abuse, yet in 23% ofthese cases, unsupervised contact was ordered at the first hearing.
Labour would introduce an explicit statutory framework which makes clear the
presumption – that the involvement of a parent will further a child’s welfare – does not apply when there has been evidence of domestic abuse to the child or other parent.
Labour would also prohibit unsupervised contact for a parent awaiting trial or on bail for domestic abuse offences, or where there are ongoing criminal proceedings for domestic abuse. Labour would also ensure that all child contact centres have to be accredited'

I am reading through the doc on Ending VAWG, and some of it is promising (see above).

Still can't find the bit that's been reported/we're discussing! Can anyone point it out to me?

Ah, wait, is this it?

'Police forces recording misogyny as a hate crime is an important step forward, but Labour wants to go further by including sex and gender in the list of protected characteristics in hate crime laws for the first time. At present, there is not one discreet offence of a hate crime offence in England and Wales. However, when the link is shown between the crime and the victim’s protected characteristics, judges can hand out enhanced sentences and increase
punishment. Labour would ensure that sex or gender are added to protected
characteristics for the first time in hate crime laws.'

Labour are likely making it up as they go along as for well everything, and it will probably end up as another disastrous piece of legislation that harms women.

As the GRA does. Definitely not a fake law, or concept without huge consequences.

@ArabellaScott yes that’s from report below, same para that made me question plans

See the part about gender does not need to be covered. Transphobia is already an aggravating factor on sentence.

Hatred of sex is not addressed. There the change is needed. Loose language makes bad policy and even worse law

That’s why we will tackle the rising tide of hate

Is there really a 'rising tide of hate'? Compared to the 'Good Old Days of my youth, of 'P*ki-basing' and 'gay bashing'? Can we see some figures on that? It's one of these phrases that gets bandied about with being questioned. I would certainly say that as a nation we are less sexist, racist, etc, than decades ago.

I'm open to persuasion.

No thanks. It’s a discussion on proposed legislation

I think that this legislation and more is vitally important. Since the public has stopped committing any of the crimes that are currently on the Statute Book, the police are seriously underemployed and without a new series of crimes to investigate, we will have to make lots of them redundant.

Oh, and by the way, please can someone tell Labour that the word is 'discrete' and not 'discreet'? It is setting my teeth on edge.

@ArabellaScott - again this "recording misogyny as a hate crime" bothers me.

Who makes the decisions as to what is misogyny and if it is a hate crime? That would seem to be the police (who in London have some significant problems with misogyny thenselves).

Beyond that, this is the same kind of "policy before law" approach that meant TRA were able to claim "hate crimes" occurred against them.

Nothing has been learned in this mess. It is all back to front.

Not true if you live in Scotland or Wales. Conservatives voted against the incredibly illiberal Hate Crimes Bill in Scotland - nearly all Labour voted for.

So we already know labour support criminalising people for comments that could be perceived as offensive to certain groups, made in the privacy of their own home.

Going back to green labour’s green belt policies; what do they think currently exists in the green belt? Just empty space? The countryside is an industrial area and that industry is food production. Building on land by allowing urban sprawl removes land from food production. We already do not produce enough to sustain ourselves, yet they think it a good idea to rely even more heavily on precarious food importation? Agricultural land needs to be much more heavily protected.

This sounds like a reality? It’s legislation, so actually possible

Labour would ensure that sex or gender are added

Which indicates that they plan to shoehorn gender into law. Even worse.

Yes.

I want politicians to stop dicking about inventing new niche laws and start actually resourcing courts to prosecute the ones that already exist. Like y'know RAPE.

But 'green belt' isn't about necessarily countryside or agricultural land, per se. It's literally just a 'belt' of land surrounding a town. It could be brownfield or contaminated land.

I'm not convinced of the wisdom of restricting the growth of towns as a blanket measure. I think it would be better to consider the land in a more localised and site specific context. We need more housing, and it has to go somewhere.

That said, I know planning in E&W, and indeed landscapes, are very different from up here in Scotland.

I live in a Labour controlled area. Bad housing, badly planned, and even less well planned industrial sites are being vomited up on farmland and every patch of green in sight. Huge amounts have disappeared under concrete in the past 5 years, and the air quality has gone from bad to awful.

The hospitals are no larger and are at breaking point, the GP and schools situation is equally dire, the police are way overstretched, the LA can't manage to fund the social care or EHCPs or special school places for the elderly, disabled and kids already here or manage to get anyone out to do the assessments in the first place they're so overstretched, flooding is an annual issue in part because of building all over flood plains, overcrowding and the inevitable social issues are building, and the road system is already at a standstill twice daily for two hours.

And all this while the same lot witter via leaflets and websites about mental health and go for a nice walk (except we destroyed the woods and fields and the air quality), and about 'save the environment' (that we're damaging with yet more fumes and concrete). They identify as all this being ok.

Two words . Meat tax.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/government-christine-jardine-home-office-misogyny-liberal-democrats-b2326445.html

The Law Commission and various women's groups have already advised against making misogyny a hate crime. I'm really baffled that Labour are pursuing this.

'Home Office minister Sarah Dines said the Government is in agreement with the Law Commission and does not intend to bring forward legislation to add sex or gender as a protected characteristic in hate crime law.
An independent report by the Law Commission in December 2021 warned that such a change “may prove more harmful than helpful” to victims and to efforts to tackle hate crime more broadly.'