Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 4

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

I wonder if these people have any pets? Or observe the nature around them? Maybe they believe we are not animals? Surely some of them have children so they know a bit about biology? It just seemed so farcical - like some dark comedy sketch at points.

I’m another appreciative lurker.

I have been reading these threads in my work breaks, and I love the fierce intelligence and humour.

I've been trying to make sense of this too. Or understand how their heads don't explode.

Is it because valid=exist in GI world? That holding.a GC view is 'valid' in the same way that holding a view for example that black people are inferior is 'valid'? That it does indeed 'exist' as a view but it's a bigoted view and therefore any expression of it is automatically racist/transphobic.

I'd really like Ben to ask.

Is it because valid=exist in GI world?

That makes a sort of sense, when taken alongside the not-validating=denying existence.

@MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving that is why LDs evidence is so powerful. The Judge intervened to really clarify that saying male bodied trans prisoner was unacceptable to LD. LD didn’t offer an alternative other than transwoman which as we know is GI language.

LD was also EDI lead, I think for the faculty, which begs the question if someone (Jo) approached her as EDI lead and said they were being discriminated against or harassed because they expressed their GC beliefs what would LD do to protect their rights? LD would say you used the term male bodied person which is transphobic so no you are not being discriminated against or harassed but you are being discriminatory.

I don’t see how LD did not create a hostile environment for Jo particularly if other faculty members supported her.

Fuck me wimms. Just catching up on this now. I don't expect the HR director reads all grievances, but when it involves a professor in an area known to be controversial, then they bloody well should. Didn't sound like she even read it to prepare for court.

The batshittery knows no bounds.

Do we think it will get less bat shit or more batshit as we go down the witness list?

@TaytoCheeseandOnion I think there is batshit ahead

Good point @MrsDoylesCake can witnesses pull out at this stage? If I were an OU witness I might have a sudden case of illness

I've often thought that being sent to a sheep farm to help with lambing season or to a stud farm to help with foalings (or similar) would do some people a lot off good. Preferably somewhere in the sticks with no internet!

CM: I didn't read the full grievance.
BC: Ever?!
CM: No.

Would be interesting to know how many grievance reports CM received each week and how many she read.

Might give an indication if not reading was special treatment

They never strike me as country folk. You ask a farmer how their cows “identify” and I’ll be impressed if they can stop laughing long enough to tell you to fuck off.

But...how would anyone know to make a decision on putting a group together to look at a grievance, and then dismiss their recommendations without reading the bloody grievance in the first place?

Make it make sense.

AlisonDonut It is utterly totally batshit.

In my gaff grievances are always chaired by someone one rung up from the lowest rung of the people in the grievance. I reckon a prof would be the equivalent of director level in my world, so grievances would be chaired by an exec director. Our HR director would be all over them with a fine tooth comb.

If she didnt pick this one to read, then which ones did she and why?

Cor it was quite the day today

I wonder if LD will ever pause to wonder why she cannot bear anyone to even be able to speak in a way that doesn’t show a belief in gender ideology

It links up I suppose with the huge readiness to outsource thinking. The demand is 'you must unconditionally claim to perceive only what this (more powerful) person instructs you to claim to perceive. And make it a good performance.' And if you have to say 'but you are male and this matters because x' you are transphobic for engaging your own reality instead of enablingly performing that of the more powerful and important person.

In this context you are nothing more than a service unit whose value is in your service and sycophantism to the more powerful person.

It's co dependence gone mad. Mental health issues on either side. One side believing they have a right to require others to abandon themselves and perform what they're told, and the other side believing that good people do that without questioning or having boundaries when meeting their needs through the feelings of caring for the 'stars' of the show. While being lucky enough to be able to have no boundaries presented by challenging life experiences that get in the way.

EDI - does the inclusion bit include all the protected characteristics?

Is it because valid=exist in GI world? That holding.a GC view is 'valid' in the same way that holding a view for example that black people are inferior is 'valid'? That it does indeed 'exist' as a view but it's a bigoted view and therefore any expression of it is automatically racist/transphobic

thanks @CriticalCondition , i see where you’re coming from but the view that black people are inferior is not WORIADS so it isn’t really a valid view anyway. Or did you use that example to demonstrate the GI redefinition of normal words re valid = exist? Like @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn example of not-validating = denying existence. My head hurts.

Maybe it’s because we don’t think young people/teenagers can give consent to experimental health-altering medicines and surgeries, and should just let time and puberty “cure” 80-odd% of them? That’d be denying trans children exist. Or maybe it’s because they see talking therapies as “conversion therapy”, i.e. we don’t WANT them to exist? Or maybe it’s our scepticism about certain middle-aged men with wives and kids who suddenly declare themselves trans?

It would be so helpful if one of our visiting TRAs could explain this, must remember the question for next time I see one here on MN.

😂 We could definitely do with a few more farmers in Universities and politics for sure, they'd sort it all out.

I think it's the fact that GI contorts and seeks to redefine the meaning of so many words that prompted that train of thought. But you are right of course, my example isn't a WORIADS.

My head hurts too. Maybe there is no making sense of it.

Jo's Woman's Place U.K. speech in 2019 as referenced in court by LD and BC today. I really can't imagine how easily offended you would have to be to take issue with it, it's entirely couched in respectful academic language:

https://x.com/womansplacee_uk/status/1394635324714889218?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Direct video link

Placemarking. Many thanks to all those of you who are annotating and commenting on the court proceedings, so that those of us(like me) who don't have the patience to do so for the necessary hours can get the flavour.

Just seen this on twitter in reference to today's case and am now widdling myself with laughter:
https://twitter.com/mar2vickers/status/1712566044051861686