Meeting with Girlguiding to express my concerns around their self-ID policies

[AJNorthWest]

Hey all, I posted ages ago to share my experience of raising concerns with Girlguiding. I got lots of support then from other leaders and parents of girls - thank you!

I now have a scheduled meeting with the CEO for later this month and I would like to ask if anyone would like to submit any of their own concerns for me to pass on. I intend on handing over a pile of printed letters of concerns, anonymous or not, to highlight that my concerns are not in the minority.

I will be talking about the incorrect language they use throughout their website and policies, along with the safeguarding implications of using unclear language and having unclear policies that revolve around keeping biological boys and men happy, with no regard for the girls and women.

I know many women share the same views but are scared to speak out, or HAVE raised concerns and been shut down. If you'd like to add your voice to mine please feel free to send me a message.

Indeed there's a fair few important topics of conversation that won't be discussed in the future that's affects girls. Also the time of conversation changes in sex-neutral topics when boys are present.

There's no way on this planet girls will open up about periods, boobs, sexual harrassment, power pressures, boys, feelings etc when there's bits present.

1. Are they aware that a significant number of men who think they are women are doing it for sexual pleasure?
2. Do they mind if these men become involved in girl guides including contact with children?
3. If they don't care, why on earth not?
4. If they do care, what processes do they have in place to work out which men who think they are women are doing it for sexual reasons so they can weed them out?
5. Have they informed their insurance providers that they are letting men who think they are women for sexual pleasure into contact with children in their care?

It is all so pointless as until there is an awful Isla Bryson moment they'll keep sticking their heads in the sand and then will profess shock and horror 'how did this happen???'

My daughter isn't a brownie but should be - I was, and a guide and my mum was brown owl. So angry at GG leadership for screwing up such a wonderful organisation.

I quit as a leader, and didn’t encourage my daughters to progress beyond brownies for this reason.

i haven’t vocalised those concerns to the senior leadership, because, yeah, reasons. but my fellow leaders (who are/were quitting at a rate of knots) did discuss this and were all of one mind about this.

single sex. Not single gender.

and yeah, take a fucking long hard look at WHO was advocating this shit (cough Challenor. Cough)

Despite amazing leaders, brilliant programme of activities, ambitious trips DD has stopped going to scouts.

DD is definitely part of the #bekind generation, respectfully using a scouts preferred pronouns but negotiating privacy and emotions far from home with a teenage child with complex emotional problems was too much.

The young lad identifying as a girl, brought absolute chaos on the Monopoly Run trip. Fouled every single cubicle set aside for the girls , was rude, dismissive and dominated the weekend. Was everything a scout should not be. The lack of privacy, the lack of discretion that more shy teenagers afford each other was absent.

I have no idea how the leaders coped. My DD never went back after that trip.

Scouts & guides has given a lot of support & help to children over the generations but asking other children to support complex emotional/mental/physical issues regarding sex is not age appropriate.

I hope policymakers can see a way forward to continue to support the amazing diverse range of kids that embrace guides & scouts and get so much out of it.

As HQ are now expecting us to be taking mixed sex groups camping, what do they expect us to do to prevent them having sex and how do they expect us to explain to parents why their daughters could do with bringing condoms if there are no boys?

What will they do to support leaders if a guide becomes pregnant at guide camp and there are no convenient scouts nearby to blame?

Those points relate to consensual sex btw, what if a guide is raped by a bepenised guide?

As the username suggests ours is a Guiding family- the current leaders have nearly 50 years experience.

We have talked about this - and will walk as soon as a boy or man tries to join the unit due to safeguarding concerns.
Guiding is not set up to be mixed sex, girls join because it is single sex, girls only.
Off on a winter camping trip soon,
taking 9 guides to camp and they’re sharing one tent. They won’t have separate space to get changed. Nor will the leaders who are also sharing a tent! We’ll just politely look the other way and pull the hoods up on our sleeping bags! I wouldn’t be going if I had to share a tent with any male other than my husband or dgs.

At the indoor guiding venues we use there is no separate or private changing room, the girls sleep in dormitories and the leaders in their own shared room. If a transwomen leader or trans girl was there, they would have to share sleeping, changing, showering and toilets with the other leaders/girls.
Our parents would not allow this. We would not agree to being forced to do this.

How could we have discussed period positivity with the guides? They absolutely would not have wanted to ask about tampons, or moon cups, or swimming with a period if males were there.
How could we have talked to the Rangers (at that time 17-19 years) about staying safe when out in their boyfriends car?

We, and others, tried to discuss this online, and were shut down. No guiding group on Facebook will allow any questions- we were banned. Comment on Twitter and your blocked. If you know public comments will lead to you possibly losing your job, speaking publicly isn't easy. We spoke to newspapers, wrote letters, we saw Katie and Helen get driven out.
So: good luck, I hope they listen.

Agree.
My DD was in GG years ago (shes in her 30s so long time ago)...was a place for girls...i wouldnt allow her to go now if she was young , out of principle

My understanding is that Helen watts asked this question and was told “our insurance will cover it”. Please do check this with Helen as Im not 100% sure of the question and answer but think I heard this in an interview she did @agnesbadenpowell I think she is…

I was entirely disgusted at this response, mainly as a parent rather than leader. A young persons life is destroyed and they think maybe a few tens of thousands of pounds makes that ok? There’s no amount of money that can make up for that.

by the way, you do realise Girlguiding trawls these mumsnet forums? Someone at HQ will likely have read all these posts. I don’t know if they monitor them or the weirdo volunteers who want to police anyone saying anything uncomplimentary about Girlguiding report them (Carol Pike who appears to have nothing to do with her life other than guiding Facebook groups for example!) but no matter they’re read - so nothing on here will likely be a surprise when you meet

Carol drives me bonkers

Came her to say the same thing about the camping. DD has really enjoyed guides and is now a Ranger, but we are not letting her go on any of the trips. At 16, pregnancy is a real and present issue and she wouldn't be sharing a tent with any of her male friends from school for exactly this reason.

@TWETMIRF carol needs a job

Scouts have had female LEADERS for over a hundred years. It was the the child members that needed boosting.

OP... Good luck. I would point out that although the leaders might not be able say that they have Trans members.. the kids do know and do tell their parents.

I left over this and I did not encourage my kids to carry on past Guides.

I'm now leading in Scouts and my kids are helping with a beaver group.

We are a real, measurable loss to Guiding, and I'd go back in a flash if they make it single sex again. I want to be in an organisation which at least attempts to understand safeguarding, so Scouting it is.

I see the ex CEO has gone off to Samaritans, I expect she'll trash it too.

You tell those at your meeting that they are losing committed, talented volunteers and kids because of this appalling betrayal of what guiding is - for women by women.

They can fuck off.

Is Scouts any better from a safeguarding point of view though? Obviously it’s an openly mixed sex organisation but if a trans girl went on a camping trip or other residential would Scouts say they should share with girls or boys?

@CraggyIslandTouristBoard scouts are actually very woolly on it... regulations in Scouts are that boys and girls can share sleeping accommodation anyway, just need separate changing facilities. Obviously you wouldn't let one boy and one girl share a tent, but in larger groups! Its apparently a case by case basis on what is best for the Scout/group.

Do you have any personal involvement, ie children who attend?

Thanks, while not ideal that does sound better than Guiding’s militant “TWAW and lets throw all the real girls under the bus” approach. I’m sure Scout leaders exercising their discretion are able to deal with things sensibly most of time.

That's my experience. There is still potential for problems but because there is not pretence that everyone is female it is possible to have the discussion and make arrangements as need be. We have only had a female scout to manage, which was fine because she didn't want to sleep with the boys anyway, she just wanted short hair, trousers and to sleep with girls . I think that sort of girl was called a lesbian in the olden days.

But Viv what would happen if a trans girl rocked up and did want to sleep in the same tent as all the other girls?

Scout leaders are bound by the same rules of confidentiality as Guide leaders.
There was a post earlier in the thread from someone who had exactly this situation- it didn't go well!

No @Guidingfamily it didn't go well from a scouting point of view. The kid was very insistent on using the girls areas, then left them absolutely filthy. Made my daughter feel uncomfortable by staring, not the natural discretion that most females and males generally have when getting changed.
My DD left after that trip, never went back.

Interestingly no one has ever asked her why.
Does anyone actually talk to the other kids?
Most of them Are generally very kind about the whole range of things that often crop up - nut allergies, asthma, mobility, a supportive environment for young carers, etc

on a personal level DD has gone from #beingkind, boycotting JKR, and saying trans women are women (never mentions transmen) to being rather quiet about the whole topic and Hogwarts is being enjoyed with no guilt.

And it wasn't tents on that occasion, a big Scout hut, mats in the hall, with I'm assuming seperate toilets & showers labelled for boys and girls

@BearsRail a couple of years ago on a Ranger weekend, the girls (aged 16-18) arrived full of chatter about a "new" girl at school. They all knew them under their old identity and felt quite sorry for them.

Listening to them, it was clear the wanted to be kind, but didn't really believe that "Sally" had become the opposite sex. They felt uncomfortable sharing single sex spaces with them and I noticed not extended an invitation to join Rangers.
The question of sharing a tent came up- they didn't like that idea at all!

And no: no one is listening to what our young people say. They want to be kind, they don't like unfairness or discrimination, but they want their own space.

Speaking as a longstanding Girlguiding member, I sincerely hope and expect your “concerns” to be dismissed.

Any concerns around predatory or creepy or otherwise inappropriate behaviour from a trans member would be dealt with in exactly the same way as concerns about a cis member - via Girlguiding’s robust safeguarding procedures. You and your children do not have the right to know what genitals someone has. Nobody has that right. You do have the right not to be abused or subjected to other inappropriate behaviour, but there is absolutely nothing about trans people that makes them more likely to perpetrate that - quite the opposite. Shame on you for trying to make an inclusive organisation less inclusive.

Girlguidings “robust” safeguarding procedures are not followed, in my experience.

and hilarious to suggest Girlguiding is “inclusive”. Have you read their own EDI audit? My understanding is even senior members have not received training and lack even basic understanding of Equality Act - unless that has changed in the very recent past.

There are issues with their policies which don’t make sense when put together. But I don’t know what the answer is to ensure everybody’s rights are respected and everyone is treated appropriately- which includes not discriminating against someone because of gender reassignment. It’s difficult.