Meeting with Girlguiding to express my concerns around their self-ID policies

[AJNorthWest]

Hey all, I posted ages ago to share my experience of raising concerns with Girlguiding. I got lots of support then from other leaders and parents of girls - thank you!

I now have a scheduled meeting with the CEO for later this month and I would like to ask if anyone would like to submit any of their own concerns for me to pass on. I intend on handing over a pile of printed letters of concerns, anonymous or not, to highlight that my concerns are not in the minority.

I will be talking about the incorrect language they use throughout their website and policies, along with the safeguarding implications of using unclear language and having unclear policies that revolve around keeping biological boys and men happy, with no regard for the girls and women.

I know many women share the same views but are scared to speak out, or HAVE raised concerns and been shut down. If you'd like to add your voice to mine please feel free to send me a message.

I'd like to ask how they think their self ID policy impacts on Muslim girls and women.

Thank you for your dedication. I removed DD from rainbows after the recent events.

@Somanycats and @Theeyeballsinthesky what were your deleted posts?

The trouble is autisticat that dealing with situations that are happening or have happened is too late. Damage is done. Why should girls suffer so that males can go to brownie camp? Prevention is far better than dealing with prediatory behaviour that has already happened.

Cub camp includes both boys and girls so why is it necessary for Brownies to allow both sexes?

Why can't girls have just the one club where they can relax and have fun out of the male gaze? Where unlike at school they don't have to play around the edges of the playground?

Why would it be such a hardship for a male child to hear 'no' and be expected to respect other people's boundaries? Even if you don't think the girls need or deserve a single sex club they have chosen to join Brownies rather than cubs which would indicate that they do.

Why are you encouraging a male child to disrespect 'no' and telling him it shouldn't be allowed to apply to him?

Question for GG CEO etc. Screenshots of wording of Royal Charter & registration with Charity Commission. The wording clearly says the organisation is for the benefit of ‘girls and young women’.

• At which AGM was it voted through to change the meaning of ‘girls and young women’ to any male who wishes to be considered female, and not just those with a GRC?
• Or was it not put to the attendees of any AGM to decide this? Was it put through by the CEO/senior leadership team without further consultation?
• Girlguiding adult recruitment is at crisis levels. What impact do they think their policy of Male Self ID has had on recruitment? And their public mistreatment of leaders Helen Watts and Katie Alcock?

I emailed GG about this last year and received a bollocks response.

its clear they have been bought. That said - I’m not sure it’s a massive deal practically as I don’t know of any trans guides or volunteers - yet.

A trans-identifying male, Monica Sulley, was promoted to a female-only Commissioner position (either District or Division). When it became public knowledge that he had posted images of himself in fetish attire and handling weaponry, could Girlguiding confirm that they reported a mother to the police who contacted them with safeguarding concerns? The mother was visited by police and interviewed under caution. The mother’s crime was to accurately refer to him by his biological sex. Could Girlguiding confirm that this is their policy towards all parents who refer to males as male? Do they have any view on the impact of their actions on recruitment of girls and adult volunteers?

@mb2512cat, it's worth noting that nobody can get a gender recognition certificate until they are 18, so all boys under that age will certainly retain their legal sex as recorded at birth. It can't be otherwise.

I've never had any involvement with Guides or Brownies and don't know the structures, but I know males over 18 can be involved so that would be where it could get legally tricky. They could have a GRC but it seems to be illegal to ask the question, still more so to demand to see it. How that was ever supposed to work, I have no idea.

It's all madness.

@Rightsraptor yes, that’s my point. When you’re a single sex organisation and you say you remain one but at the same time decide to change it to include Male Self ID - Ie males who remain legally male/without are GRC - then on what basis in law have you done that and what internal procedures have you followed to make this happen? If you’ve changed the raison d’être of the organisation without it being ratified at an AGM on what basis does it exist?

Ask them if their policies have been designed to deliberately exclude girls from backgrounds where post pubertal girls are not allowed to mix with boys outside their families, because if so it has succeeded, which raise issues about deliberately excluding girls because of their religious, cultural or racial grounds.

GG formulated its policy on Male Self ID after input from Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence. GG remains a Stonewall Diversity Champion. What ongoing involvement do these organisations have with Girlguiding? Does GG have any safeguarding concerns about Gendered Intelligence? What requirements does Girlguiding have to fulfill to be a Diversity Champion? Did it influence their decision to report a mother to police for misgendering? Do they have any concerns that Stonewall has completely misrepresented the law to bring about Male Self ID to the detriment of girls and women?

Girlguiding policies:

• girlguiding has a policy that on overnight residentials, that attendees who are male have to have separate sleeping and bathroom facilities (screenshot). Why does Girlguiding have this rule? Is it for safeguarding reasons? If so, why allow Male Self ID to circumvent this rule? Why not allow all males, regardless of gender identify, to share sleeping and bathroom facilities?
• GG has a policy for first aid (screenshot) which says males who administer first aid need a female chaperone. In addition, a woman should take care of girls’ personal hygiene needs. Why have a sex specific policy and also allow Male Self ID? Do GG have no concerns at all about allowing males to circumvent safeguarding policies to access girls without female oversight?
• Residential Event Notification form: during Covid, Girlguiding changed the REN in a crucial way to purposely water down safeguarding. As background, the REN has to be filled out by every leader taking away their unit on an overnight and submitted to their DC for authorisation. In the old version of the form (screenshot attached), it specifically asked if any males were attending the event and if so, whether they had separate bathroom and sleeping facilities available, so a DC could check compliance with the policy on males/overnights. In the new version, this wording has been dropped entirely. So a DC signing off on an overnight has no way of knowing if any males - however they identify - are attending the overnight. This act is highly intentional, and reflects GG’s desire to strip away references to sex wherever possible, as adherence to Gender Ideology is more important than basic safeguarding.

Girlguiding ethos:

GGmakes a great deal of holding itself out as caring about the issues facing girls, such as the Girls’ Attitude Survey and getting press coverage of their Girlguiding Advocates. How do they feel about issues that Male Self ID presents:

• girls in certain schools across the country are losing female-only toilets and changing rooms. Their female-only spaces are either being turned explicitly mixed sex or allow trans-identifying males to use them. Presumably GG has no issues with these policies and indeed welcome them, as all good followers of Gender Ideology do? What does GG think of girls not drinking so they can last the day without using the school toilets, or being assaulted by males in their toilets? Do they think males getting naked in their changing rooms is ok because they say they are female? Are the girls being unreasonable in these scenarios?
• Males in girls’ sport: Emily Bridges tried to get into women’s cycling after a successful career in male cycling. There are plenty of other examples of males in women’s sports and taking medals, titles and prize money. Does GG think this is fair because TWAW and girls should be delighted this is happening? Would they let their Advocates advocate for a contrary position? If you hold yourself out as championing the well-being and success of girls, where do you stand on male inclusion? Or should girls just run faster, play better?

Girlguiding & DBS
Does GG have confidence in the DBS system? After all, the DBS system only picks up those with a record of offending and the likes of Jimmy Savile would pass with flying colours. So for those males without a record, those final barriers to unfettered female access: the separate overnight sleeping and showering arrangements, the female chaperone when administering first aid or dealing with girls’ periods, all that is now available. What a prize!

• Scenario 1: a trans-identifying male wants to join GG in a role reserved only for females. He is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent girls and has abused in the past but has no record with the police so he knows he’ll pass a DBS and he has friends who’ll vouch for him to pass the references required. He used to be called Jimmy Savile but now he wants to be known as Jemima. He contacts the DBS sensitive applications team and they make sure his certificate is issued without any mention of his previous identity. He then applies to be a first aider at an overnight event and now shares female leaders’ sleeping quarters and oversees girls’ first aid without a chaperone. It’s a dream come true.
• Scenario 2: a trans-identifying male has an offending record which would normally prevent him passing an enhanced DBS check. He changes his name, without informing the police and goes down the sensitive application route, saying he’s trans, and doesn’t tell the District Commissioner or the DBS service about the name he committed his offending under his previous name (s). He passes the DBS, and the DBS is issued without any of his previous identities and becomes a female member, eager to get involved in all aspects of running a unit and eyeing up a county role in DEI.

Girlguiding & Insurance
Has GirlGuiding’s insurance increased due to its policy on Male Self ID?

The only reason Girlguiding hasn’t faced the lawsuits that the Scouts in the U.K. and US have regarding child abuse is that males have never had free access to children combined with the fact that females have a staggeringly lower propensity to commit abuse crimes vs males. That all flies out of the window with male self ID. To put it in context, Scouts in the US are bankrupt under the weight of multi-billion dollar lawsuits, while in the U.K., Scouting members have had over 250 convictions for rape, indecent assault, voyeurism and offences related to pornographic images and the organisation itself has paid out millions in compensation.

See BBC “Scouts: Millions paid out over UK abuse in last 10 years, say lawyers” - 13 June 2023

or check out this solicitor’s map which shows nationwide offending:
https://www.boltburdonkemp.co.uk/abuse-claims/where-does-abuse-happen/scouts/scouts-abuse-map/

How can they continue as a single gender organisation when 'gender' is a social construct reliant on the mores of a particular society at a particular time.

Eg if they were to organise a visit to places of worship where would the guides sit in a mosque? Synagogue? Gurdwara?

The next Jamboree is in Poland, Poland is quite a conservative country with no provisions for anti discrimination laws for things like gender ID.

A trans girl guide can be actively discriminated against and subjected to hate speech quite legally in Poland, how does GG propose to safeguard these individuals?

OP

I bring up the issue in this way as it comes as a surprise that you are thinking about safeguarding trans ggs, there answer(s) can be used to highlight the lack of safeguarding generally in GG.

@Eggybrains i bluntly pointed out you don’t need to see someone’s genitals ti know what sex they are

Shame on you for trying to make an inclusive organisation less inclusive

Right back at you with a side helping of trying to use emotional blackmail to stifle any dissent or questions. Basic safeguarding - ask questions and plan for the worst case scenario and don't treat anyone as beyond suspicion.

The wilful blindness around this issue astounds me.

A single-sex organisation is exclusive, legally and for good reason, of the opposite sex. Including the opposite sex makes it no longer single-sex. Nobody here has claimed that trans people are predatory. Male people, on the whole, are more likely to be predatory, but they also change the dynamic of a group to the detriment of girls and women - hence why Girlguiding was set up in the first place.

Girlguiding claims to be a girl-only space, now whether that is their new definition that is based on gender identity or in the biological sense - why do you think they decided to be girl-only?

@sashh's point of reinforcing the concerns about the safety of trans members is a good one. We all know women & girls' safety and comfort isn't a consideration, so it's useful to turn the tables and ask 'what about the trans members when we go to Poland?'

If you're following the Jo Phoenix employment tribunal, you'll see that Jo said she didn't ask for people's pronouns because it could be 'outing' for someone struggling with their gender ID. I'm not suggesting for a second that she doesn't sincerely believe that, but it does come from the Yogyakarta Principles which is a wishlist drawn up by gender ideologists and so is hard to argue with.

Oh, @autisticat - why oh why can't girls be permitted anything of their own any longer?

Off topic a bit as I think the 💩show that Girlguiding has become is a whole lot more than just what you’re discussing (which I do think is a very difficult issue). But if anyone of you are, or have a young person as a child involved in Guiding who see what a disaster it has become, why not get them to try to tell them so here https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/events-and-opportunities/event-and-opportunity-finder/join-advocate-panel/ Surely it affects girls that the trustees of Girlguiding are destroying what was previously a wonderful place for girls?

Its like watching a sinking ship. They’ve got what, like 10 years left?

I mean I doubt they’ll want anyone involved who dares to say anything other than Girlguiding is perfect, but it would be interesting to see them try to get them to listen.

@Eggybrains the whole Girlguiding Advocates thing is such a joke. Ok girls let’s campaign for… female-only sports! Oh no, we can’t do that; that would upset the males. Let’s campaign for female only prisons… no, can’t do that. Let’s campaign for female-only hospital/intimate care… oh no, can’t do that. Let’s campaign for female-only shortlists in politics, oh no, can’t do that. Let’s campaign for female-only toilets and changing room.. oops, can’t do that! Let’s campaign for female-only roles in GirlGuiding! Oh no, can’t do that!

@Eggybrains athough perhaps Poppy here has some good suggestions https://x.com/girlguidingscot/status/1620385387737927681?s=46&t=WBUCdrv9BwgG-lsI3-uNuQ

I'm not on Twitter @mb2512cat so can't read what Poppy has to say about GG but that face looks male. Am I right ?