No man admits to rape Caitlin Moran in The Times

[IcakethereforeIam]

Depressing but thought provoking. It's an archive link. I think there have been interviews with admitted rapists but there is a massive gap. It's great and laudable to want to improve conviction rates and better support victims but prevention is better than cure. The problem is most rapists go unpunished and I can't see a #yeahme getting much engagement, except perhaps as a wank bank.

https://archive.ph/Vp9og

That made me laugh!

I probably count as one of rape's apologists. I was taken home by a friend I really fancied because I was too drunk to open my front door. He took my virginity. I don't really remember saying anything much at all. Then he climbed out of my window because he said no one could know and I shouldn't tell anyone. I was 19 and I still don't believe it was rape, despite everyone I know disagreeing with me.

But you shouldn’t blame yourself - the cultural narrative that you have always been immersed in intentionally makes it difficult to recognise what happened to you as a problem.

You aren’t a rape apologist in doing so.

The problem is that ‘friend’ felt entitled to your body - even when it wasn’t clear that you were consenting. And he told you it must be a secret. He is the problem.

I bet he’s spent his life firmly believing he’s one of the ‘good guys’.

@IncomingTraffic I'm not sure actually. He kind of knows. He said something to me about a decade later, on the sidelines of someone's party. Something about it being a bad time in his life. He always looked anguished and tended to avoid me. But yeah I guess to the world at large he is ana amazing guy.

All of this, plus it is a very common survivor response to trauma to deny that it happened, or to minimise it, because trying to process the reality is too over-whelming.

Very sorry this happened to you, @Switcher

Bollocks now I'm just all upset, why did I open this fucking thread. It was neatly in its box of stuff that never happened.

Step away. You have found a way of dealing with what happened. There isn't a right or wrong way of reacting. It worked for you; you are not an apologist, you are a survivor.

Definitely step away. Hide the thread.

Nothing about how you have framed what happened to you is wrong. Nothing you’ve done is wrong.

I am sorry discussing it has upset you and reopened a closed box.

Great article. I can't believe within 2 pages people are slagging her off for writing this.

Robust challenge with some exasperation is the way I see it rather than you (plausibly sex-shaming?) more judgmental and derogatory assessment of the criticism.

Caitlin Moran has been getting an absolute kicking on Twitter, whatever she writes, since publishing What About Men. This is the latest scolding, coming overwhelmingly from people who seem to have read one sentence in isolation (nb that's not aimed at contributors to this thread.)

So what if she is "feminism lite"? She's introduced feminism to millions of women, girls, boys and men who'd never read an academic feminist text, with a brilliant sense of humour, silliness, positivity and warmth. I always get the sense she wants the best for women AND men. She's a cheerleader.

Reading the latest slagging on Twitter pissed me off, because I think she's being held to that impossible standard that insists women in public life express themselves perfectly, at all times, with consideration to all parties, or shut the hell up. I don't have any issue with people discussing her ideas, but lately it has spilled into a generalised sense that she should go away and STFU. I don't understand that urge to stamp out someone who is pretty much the sole spokeswoman for feminist takes in mainstream UK media, and a likeable, inclusive one at that.

I thought it was a great article: controlled yet furious, aimed at the broader social context that allows rapists to operate and means women aren't believed.

Actually @Keenovay I think that's a fair criticism. That sentence is about the only bum note in the article. The rest is an excellent critique.

Working in the legal profession, the Moran article resonates with me. I've seen lots of cases that never proceeded to court (most of them), and even in the cases that do go to court where there is overwhelming evidence, it's very very rare for a man to admit what he has done. I'd also add that I've seen "blind" family and friend support for the convicted. It's not only the man who does not admit, they often have a very strong support network too.

https://www.standard.co.uk/insider/what-i-learnt-from-working-as-a-relationships-counsellor-b1111358.html

I would stake my life on all the men I know being truly incapable of it.

Dangerously naïve, ignorant and quite frankly offensive bit of the article. If only we knew the nice men of Caitlin's world women could avoid being raped.

Because most men don't accept rape is something that applies to them, damn it! Every damned man she knows could have raped someone more than once and she'd not know because in their view, it isn't rape. It was sex.

Overrode objections... Did it while she was asleep... Did it while she was drunk or incapacitated... She said No but she liked it really... Women like real men who are forceful... She said yes and she's a prick tease to change her mind...

There are very, very few men I believe truly incapable of it. If any.

I vaguely know someone who was Me Too’d for something that he had done in his late teens (not rape, but a ‘won’t take no for an answer’ type sexual assault on a girl of the same age in their social circle). I think he must’ve been early 30s when she went public with it.

He apologised, she took that apology to the police as proof of guilt, he admitted everything she accused him of, pled guilty and last I heard was serving a prison sentence.

i didn’t know him well, but he seemed alright. I knew the woman he was in a relationship with when the Me Tooing happened. She moved back to her home town after he was charged, so I don’t see her anymore - she was heartbroken by it all, humiliated. Took his dog on after he went down for it.

That this man who actually showed remorse, admitted culpability and didn’t put his victim through a trial got a custodial sentence, yet men who deny everything and refuse to take any responsibility for the harm they’ve caused can get away with it seems arse backwards
(although TBF I think he got 5 years, out in 2.5, so his admittance of guilt was reflected in the lesser sentence).

Odd article.
I don't know women who actively fear being raped

Odd post. I don't know any women who don't actively fear it.

Do you live on another planet or something?

Yes you did. It will inform where they walk, what time they walk there, how they feel when they are walking. It will infect how they live their lives and they may not even consciously realise it, as this is just everyday how they live their life.

Is this some weird sort of joke post?

You read an article that starts with the stat that 1/4 of all women have been raped… and your response is to dismiss rape as something women might fear. seriously?

Perhaps you would stake your life on all the men in your life being truly incapable of it or something.

For me no man is truly incapable of it . Those who cajole , press for sex when a woman isn't wanting it
Those who take advantage of a drunk woman

Those who just don't get no -for me any man is capable . Even the "good" guys

Compensatory rapists do t see themselves as rapists . No means yes . They don't mean it . They want it really . Yadda yadda yadda . And those like my rapist who just decided to try anal without a word . Like it was a slip up . Bollocks .

I think its interesting we always talk about it in terms of mens intent, rather than womens experience.

I don't understand why so many men want sex with women who aren't really up for it. And why its acceptable for men to be confused about consent.

I don't think its all men, but in my life many of my sexual (male) partners have been somewhat coercive or lied to gey sex, so I do think its a lot of them

This