Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2

[ickky]

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

CW - Chris Williams, Senior Lecturer History
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SE - Sarah Earle, Prof of Medical Sociology, Director HWSRA 2016-22
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Yes, people have nothing to lose in asking?

He reminds me of my old boss, and I'm just reading TT and the comments here. So I admit to bias and disliking the sound of him.

@ickky I would like a reminder please: I had no reply from my previous request. Thank you.

@chilling19 did I miss something - what did "nobody said stop it" refer to?

As ever, thank you to everyone updating and commenting.

I think the OU had to decide which was worse. Leaving a very obvious black hole in the witness list ripe for difficult questions or call the old school reasonable sounding senior guy and hope the worst impression he leaves is one of being fair but feeble.

@HarpQuartet

Email [email protected]

Header should read

Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

If you get no reply, phone them. 01923 281750

Re access - the IT support team suggest putting urgent in the subject line and pointing out this is a current case (otherwise you might wait longer for a reply)

Thank you @ickky

I didn't include my address before, but have done this time.

@Mmmnotsure I saw your suggestion too late, but if I request it a third time I will do just that

It was BC saying to the prof that no one said to someone stop it - can't remember the precise incident now. Tribunal Tweets will have it I think. I don't know how to search a Twitter thread.

Thanks @chilling19 I'll hope to have time to read TT later

It was BC saying to the prof that no one said to someone stop it

Does anyone else get a Ted Lasso vibe from this? The scene where Rebecca tells the other team owners to "Stop it"? But rather than destroying football, this is about destroying the reputation of universities and the academy in general?

https://lassoism.com/Ted-Lasso-quote.php?id=920

Ha! I interpreted that as 'Ben, you can stop, he's dead now ' . A comment on here from one of Ben's Wrens following a particularly thorough line of questioning by BC in one of the other hearings.

Ben really does have exquisite timing. Read the last bit on TT Commentary. Mic drop!

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1711687253003579629.html

The problem is that through their inaction (and inability to deal with toddler tantrums) they're tacitly accepting the GI view that stating all mammals have two sexes (a scientific fact) is somehow hateful and transphobic.

They did not uphold the vexatious complaints against JP but they allowed her to be discriminated against and excluded because of views that are factually based, reasonable, respectful and - just to make this point - held by 99.99% of the human race (especially when you consider all the non Western countries).

BC's point is well made that the so say 'feminist' group excluded anyone with a belief in biological reality. You had to believe TWAW to join the group and this was explicitly written down.

I got a link! Unless my situation changes, I'll be able to attend online tomorrow.

Oof, my email address is my full name - did I see there's a way of not displaying that?

You can type in a name when you join, I don't think the other participants can see emails. Plenty of people have only put a first name. Remember to turn your camera off if you don't want them to see you!

Well done!

I've just emailed them again. Third time's the charm, i hope. 🤞🏻

So the "Feminism" society said if you don't agree TWAW this is not the place for you. And yet IF still says that it doesn't mean GC will be excluded?!

You couldn't really say it more clearly could you?

Great timing to break for lunch there - well done Ben!

@HarpQuartet The clerk will want to see you briefly - and then you turn off your camera (again). Neurotic people cover up their camera on their computer as well, just in case...

I commented to the clerk that, given the subject of this ET, it was understandable many women did not want to give their full name.

She said that once you had been ID'd you will have access to following sessions.

Thank you @Mmmnotsure and @pronounsbundlebundle and bon chance @Ameanstreakamilewide

What if you identify as invisibility gender? I'm really here clerk, you just can't see me. Makes as much sense as thinking humans can change sex.

Sorry if this is teaching to suck eggs, but just in case:

When you connect to the conference, the first screen has the Conference Alias or URI box, and below that a box for your name. Whatever you type into this box is the name that comes up as ID in the side bar when you are in the Conference. No email addresses or anything are visible.

@Mmmnotsure I've screenshotted that to refer to tomorrow so that I don't accidentally do what my children would call a "bozo move". (gender: bozo. Pronouns: twit/twat)

What is the feminist society or feminist discussion group that's referenced? Is it something within the department/faculty for academics? Or is it student led, like the feminist society at the students union? If it's a series of events for researchers in the workplace it should not require you hold a particular set of beliefs to be able to take part. At the very least it should be both or neither. Either both are acceptable- 'this discussion group takes the view that women are a sex class, oppressed on the basis if sex' and 'this discussion group takes the view that twaw and women is a gender identity' or neither are acceptable.