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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guardian: increased hate crimes against transgender people

101 replies

PorcelinaV · 05/10/2023 19:27

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/05/record-rise-hate-crimes-transgender-people-reported-england-and-wales

The Home Office said the overall fall in the figures could be linked to interim guidance published last year which “may have led to greater scrutiny of the threshold of what constitutes a criminal offence of public fear, alarm or distress”.

However its report noted: “Transgender issues have been heavily discussed by politicians, the media and on social media over the last year, which may have led to an increase in these offences, or more awareness in the police in the identification and recording of these crimes.”

...

“These statistics show there has been an overall reduction in hate crimes recorded by police, and the numbers of sexual orientation, race and disability hate crimes all fell.

“Whilst the increase in transgender hate crime may be due to a genuine rise, the biggest driver is likely to be general improvements in police recording.”

Hate crimes against transgender people hit record high in England and Wales

Increase of 11% in recorded incidents may be due to comments in media and by politicians, says Home Office report

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/05/record-rise-hate-crimes-transgender-people-reported-england-and-wales

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
TheGreatATuin · 06/10/2023 17:10

Moglet4 · 06/10/2023 16:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

Not long ago, on the day that it was announced that Roe vs Wade was repealed, I attended a panel supporting women's reproductive rights and our right to choose.
In order to get into the venue, I had to walk past a police line separating attendees from shouting protesters and was filmed by a man 'monitoring' us as I went into the venue.
This wasn't a far right event. And it wasn't far right protesters.
They were trans activists screaming 'trans women are women' and 'no terfs on our turf'.
A pro-choice event was literally labelled as a hate event and useful idiots showed up to protest it.
This is the problem. Trans activism is not a progressive movement. It is deeply regressive and conservative, and completely reliant on hearsay and no one taking the time to find out for themselves what women saying.
The idea that gender critical women are being influenced by the far right is laughable to anyone who is listening to what we are actually saying.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 06/10/2023 17:16

Moglet4 · 06/10/2023 16:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

I'm not demonising them but male bodied people which transwomen are belong in single sex spaces assigned to male bodied people. That makes me a hateful bigot and I could be accused of harassment with an aggravating factor of hate if someone wanted to which would be added to the hate crime statistics.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2023 17:18

Moglet4 · 06/10/2023 16:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

I suggest that you actually do some research around this issue. Starting with the % of male trans people in prison who have at least one sexual offence conviction. The can I suggest you apply the current numbers in prison and with convictions in the past and do the actual sums on the census data of how many male people registered themselves as trans women in the latest census.

We can link you up. But I get the feeling you will reject our offer.

Now you might feel that the numbers of sex offences is 'extremely rare'. You might completely ignore the ratio of sex offenders with trans identities vs general male population. No one can make you seek that information at all. It is your choice.

However, for safeguarding risk assessment, could you please show the evidence that male trans people commit sex offences at a reduced rate than the whole UK male population?

And if you cannot find any studies or any evidence that has been verified at all, please could you tell us what that means in your eyes for safeguarding risk assessment?

In short, are you arguing that we should not discuss these issues because it is hateful? Would you feel the same way knowing that there is potentially now a group of male people who have at least the same propensity to commit sex crimes as the rest of the UK male population but have been put into a special category where safeguarding has been reduced significantly or worse, ignored?

And ignored because people feel it is hateful to discuss the issue and find solutions that protect children and women.

You are here declaring that the facts have been exaggerated. Please prove this so we can see why you are saying it is not a problem and can feel just as comfortable as you with this issue.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2023 17:23

Moglet4 · 06/10/2023 16:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

While you are here moglet, because you feel that the examples are 'extremely rare' could you please tell us on the thread how many girls and women you feel is acceptable collateral to be harmed by allowing a male person with a trans identity into any female single sex space?

Is it 1? Because well, we have past that number long ago.
Is it 2? same as above.
10?
50?
100?
1000?

We had a poster the other day on FWR tell us that they felt that an established trend of around 100 girls and women per year are acceptable to be sexually abused until we should be able to discuss these issues and campaign to ban all males in single sex space?

Do you agree?

That would be at least 500+ girls and women that should consider themselves acceptable in that poster's eyes to be harmed before they felt we could act.

What do you think? do you agree?

Helleofabore · 06/10/2023 17:36

Moglet4 · 06/10/2023 12:50

Oh there is plenty of misplaced hate on here.

Can you show us where please?

It is really pretty offensive to plop onto a thread and make this kind of blanket statement. In fact, it is against the Talk Guidelines for this board.

Can you at least support your accusation please? It would benefit those reading along to see exactly what you mean and hey, may we can all work together so that no 'hate' is posted.

GailBlancheViola · 06/10/2023 17:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

@Moglet4 what a bizarre, over the top reaction to a reasonable and reasoned post by RedToothBrush.

Though, as expected, your version of live and let live excludes women and girls being able to live their lives.

Live and let live applied to rapist Adam Graham aka Isla Bryson of pink leggings fame when he attended that Beauty Course where women and girls were made very uncomfortable in his presence and had to undress in front of him for part of the course - marvellous eh? I'd say inflicting women and girls to the gaze of a predatory rapist is a massive problem, how about you? And before you say Adam Graham is not trans, save your breath he is as trans as anyone else who claims to be.

Abhannmor · 06/10/2023 17:54

Yesterday was the anniversary of the first big Civil Rights march in Derry , organised by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association and the Derry Housing Action Committee. This photo popped up. Is it still a hate crime if the police do it ?

Anyway I doubt the victim was misgendered. Small mercies and all that.

Edit. Decided to can the photo. MN said Sensitive? Not sure how to proceed. But you see my point about claims of gen*cide and the grim prosaic reality.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2023 18:12

GailBlancheViola · 06/10/2023 17:47

You are extremely rude and ignorant to tar people with a brush of your making. You know nothing about me, my life experiences or my worldview. The hate towards trans people and the idea that they are a massive problem to women has been largely created by the right wing press and while specific examples of crimes against women perpetrated by the trans community are possible to find, in REALITY and not lala land (where the readers of the likes of the Daily Heil and the Torygraph actually live) these examples are thankfully extremely rare. Live and let live means stop demonising a group who have done nothing to deserve it.

@Moglet4 what a bizarre, over the top reaction to a reasonable and reasoned post by RedToothBrush.

Though, as expected, your version of live and let live excludes women and girls being able to live their lives.

Live and let live applied to rapist Adam Graham aka Isla Bryson of pink leggings fame when he attended that Beauty Course where women and girls were made very uncomfortable in his presence and had to undress in front of him for part of the course - marvellous eh? I'd say inflicting women and girls to the gaze of a predatory rapist is a massive problem, how about you? And before you say Adam Graham is not trans, save your breath he is as trans as anyone else who claims to be.

Ad hominim attacks are easier than responding to points.

Its easier to blame the right wing media brainwashing women than to engage to points.

Abusing others and calling them names is a form of intimidation and a form of power designed to try and control.

Its transphobic and rude to do anything but be fully supportive and affirm without question.

The narcissism destroyed my family. So I don't really give a lot less fucks over whether I 'upset' anyone now.

Just because I'm 'rude' doesn't mean I'm not right and it doesn't need to be discussed. Part of the problem with the whole topic is the unwillingness to talk about extremely difficult, sensitive and complex issues precisely because they are hard. The fact that these subjects are creating such problems and are causing such issues is precisely why we should be talking about them more and stop being squirmish about it because its causing 'upset' or 'rudeness'.

We need to get down to the nitty gritty past that and take the emotion out of it.

I think its a religious belief. It is not based in fact. And its being imposed in a way thats causing numerous harms which are not being acknowledged properly and thats not acceptable.

Helleofabore · 06/10/2023 18:18

Adhom attacks ARE easier than answering the challenging questions.

I really don't think that posters think through their statements about 'right wing media'. If you are poster who believes that women have been influenced by 'right wing media' to the degree that they have lost the ability to analyse data and information from original sources and apply critical thinking, how did you gain such a infantilising outlook about women?

I thought that we had moved past this 'right wing' accusations. But it seems not.

GailBlancheViola · 06/10/2023 18:25

You'd have been telling those women and girls on that Beauty Course to: stop being mean, live and let live and calling them transphobic for feeling deeply uncomfortable in the presence of Adam Graham/Isla Bryson wouldn't you @Moglet4 ?

How do you think they felt when he was convicted? Any compassion for them or do you save that all up for trans people?

DerekFaker · 06/10/2023 18:34

PaperWalkAndTalk · 05/10/2023 20:26

On the BBC too, apparently it seems like TRAs want a boycott of the BBC over that "lesbians being pressurised into sex" article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66984843

That photograph of Shea Coffey is egregiously misleading. This is what they actually look (and sound) like:

www.kentonline.co.uk/kmtv/video/founder-or-medway-pride-radio-shea-coffey-52018/

Founder or Medway Pride Radio Shea Coffey

Read more on KentOnline

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kmtv/video/founder-or-medway-pride-radio-shea-coffey-52018

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2023 19:22

IcakethereforeIam · 06/10/2023 18:45

There this article by a woman who escaped a cult and her, totally unconnected Hmm, view of gender ideology

https://quillette.com/2022/05/19/gender-ideologys-true-believers/

It's a bit long.

Thanks for that Icake.

Thats brilliant.

Some key highlights about cult features I think are really relevant to this discussion about left v right (editted a bit for brevity):

Lifton identified eight psychological themes underpinning thought reform—which is to say the ideological coercion (or, more colloquially, “brainwashing”) that happens in cults as well as totalitarian states.

The first is “milieu control,” the severing of communication with those who challenge the group’s beliefs.

No one is told not to communicate with outsiders or read opposing views—they don’t have to be. Followers may even occasionally make a point of checking out the opposing views of “TERFs” (a term of abuse that stands for “trans-exclusionary radical feminist”) to prove they can refute them, but the act is a charade. A dutiful scroll through a “TERF” essay is “reading” in quote marks, with a mind fully shut. Opening one’s thinking to opposing views would not only throw into question the group’s ideology, but jeopardize the follower’s treasured sense of belonging and purpose. The follower identifies so completely with the group that challenges to it are perceived as an existential assault—even “violence,” as trans activists will claim.

“The demand for purity” also stands out among Lifton’s criteria. The group drums into the follower the idea that she or he is guilty or unworthy in some way, and can only hope to alleviate this feeling of culpability by embarking on a futile pursuit of perfection.

“Loading the language” and “sacred science,” two more of Lifton’s criteria, could have been written with trans activism in mind. The group’s dogmas are cast as the latest frontier in scientific knowledge and cannot be questioned.

Lifton noted that thought reform is characterized by a reliance on the “thought-terminating cliché” and transformation of language. New words convey the group’s insights while existing words are given new meaning. “Non-binary,” “cishet,” “genderqueer,” and “genderfluid” are just the beginning of today’s new lexicon.

Proceeding down Lifton’s eight-point list: Under the headings of “doctrine over person” and “dispensing of existence,” we get some of his most chilling observations. The doctrine prevails over any individual human’s life, which becomes essentially expendable. If an individual’s experience contradicts the group’s doctrine, that person’s reality must be manipulated so the doctrine is vindicated. And so detransitioners, whose harrowing personal accounts impugn trans ideology, are shrugged away with some version of the explanation, “They were obviously never really trans to begin with.” Even though this directly contradicts a core tenet of trans ideology—“If someone says they’re trans, believe them”—the sanctity of the doctrine is nominally affirmed and the individual is disappeared. The media silencing of detransitioners and desisters is one of the most disturbing reflections of the obeisance commanded by trans activists, never mind the women, men, and children who suffer as a result of their dogmas.

Every totalitarian or authoritarian group or movement—and cults are crystallized authoritarianism—coheres in opposition to a group that it hates. This was the particular insight of the Frankfurt School, some of whose intellects observed in The Authoritarian Personality that “[the] authoritarian must [their emphasis], out of an inner necessity, turn his aggression against out-groups.”

What is troubling here about someone labelling FWR as more right wing than the rest of MN because of what they are quoting? Even though they say they are GC.

Because they are STILL displaying a hell of a lot of the above, with verbotten media outlets and talk of purity of thought. I've had another one tonight on another thread (see the other delightful poster who called rude on the Gigi thread). There is a thought terminating cliche within the trope about 'the Daily Heil'. Again verbotten books which must be burned.

And in the last couple of days we've had doctrine over person and dispensing of existence with the lovely Michael Crick and the ThunderGodess saying that women are expedible. Michael Crick being a renowned leftie journalist formally of the Beeb and C4. Someone you'd REALLY expect better from, given his career and the principles of journalistic intigrity.

Without the Times and Newsnight (yep Newsnight is somehow now right wing) where would the stuff about the Tavistock be? Or is the Cass Review somehow a Right Wing Propaganda move too?

The sad truth is that sometime the right are say things worthwhile and somethings the left say things that are worthwhile. If you are too stupid to realise this, you miss half the worthwhile stuff there is and we all end up poorer for it.

Tribalism in politics is the most toxic thing in politics. Thats NOT the culture war. This predates the 'culture war'. My lecturer back in 1996 was talking about this dynamic when he told the young me to remove my own prejudices and get my head out of my arse and LISTEN to views and opinions you might not always agree with, because one in a while they might actually have a valid point.

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2023 19:24

Sorry, I really am getting my threads mixed up tonight.

Too many threads in parallel making the same shitty point about Right Wing nonsense

IcakethereforeIam · 06/10/2023 20:03

I'm getting a bit confused too. We should get them colour coded, the threads not the scolders.....although!

PaperWalkAndTalk · 06/10/2023 20:45

Wow, didn't talk long for the abuse to come out from a poster who then starts spouted childish phrases like "Daily Heil".

The same old right wing culture war conspiracy theory.

Live and let live? What about all the detransitioners who regret being manipulated into making such decisions?

The attempt to silence any criticism on this subject is what leads to people making life-altering decisions that they live to regret.

Boomboom22 · 06/10/2023 20:53

It's just crazy because if a woman says twam online she can be arrested for a hate crime but tra can literally say online they will rape and kill and burn people but even if this ever does get recorded the courts say they didn't mean it literally so its fine. Wtf?

IcakethereforeIam · 06/10/2023 21:11

Or 'punch them in the fucking face'.

Froodwithatowel · 06/10/2023 21:29

I see we're onto the narcissist's prayer.

That doesn't happen. stop looking at the evidence
If it did it was written by the right wing press so you're a heretic for looking at it and have no right to speak
And if it did happen it wasn't that bad because it's not a LOT of women (and no one I care about, and it's not affecting me)

Look love, the fact you have never managed to listen to any women's voices or experiences sufficiently to actually have any kind of grip on what the issues actually are, largely because you have your fingers shoved in your ears and are bawling 'lalalalala haters I can't hear you' like a child in the playground to try and escape from it, is your problem. If you're a male supremacist who believes women don't matter the same as men, and the natural role of women is as walking aids/resources for men and good women don't want equality of consideration or access or to deny men use of them, then you do you. Just have the honesty to own it.

But at least have the guts to read some of the actual issues and get a grip on them. Women are asking for equality of access and consideration to male TQ+ people, and to have their needs met too . Answers that work for everybody.

You are asking for women to not matter, accept exclusion and harm and shut up about it, because it's mean for them not to selflessly make men happy and expect nothing themselves. No one emotionally healthy enters into that kind of 'I don't matter' relationship with anyone. You want answers that work exclusively for men and you're desperately trying to hide from facing upto the harms this involves for women. Obviously looking at it is too scary for you. Perhaps you are afraid if you listen or think, you'll lose your faith. But the fact you can't face it shows you know very well you're uncomfortable with it.

That would be because it's wrong. Answers that work equally for all - including the women you've clearly never met or known anything about, and 'other' so very much - what is 'hateful' or wrong about that?

OhcantthInkofaname · 06/10/2023 22:15

Transparent2 · 05/10/2023 19:30

Am I right in thinking that "hate crimes against women" and "hate crimes against TERFs" aren't even recorded?

I am gender neutral not a terf.

Transparent2 · 06/10/2023 23:33

OhcantthInkofaname · 06/10/2023 22:15

I am gender neutral not a terf.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. I’m not a TERF either (I’m not radical, I’m not a feminist - just in favour of women’s rights on the whole - and I wouldn’t describe myself as trans-exclusionary though others might).

There are numerous known instances of hate directed at women who get described as TERFs - but they are not recorded officially as ‘hate crimes’ or ‘non-crime hate incidents’ or whatever the terms are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2023 14:01

Froodwithatowel · 05/10/2023 19:34

Misgendering, dead naming, fact shaming, kink shaming and mentioning reality. And other people saying no get your size 13s off my feet, I'm not your mum/carer/youth worker and I have rights too.

I've lost all capacity to care or take this seriously until someone untangles what 'hate crimes' actually means, and separates actual, real harm from whinging and fussbudgeting. This is unfortunately what happens when you shamelessly manipulate people; they get burned out and they stop bloody trusting a word you say.

Btw the list of 'non criminal hate incidents' for women, start with two bloody MPs grinning like clowns under a sign endorsing executing women who stand up for their equality and won't subordinate themselves to men.

Edited

Quite.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2023 14:13

OhcantthInkofaname · 06/10/2023 22:15

I am gender neutral not a terf.

You are mistaken.

Women don't get to decide what they are.

They are informed what they are.

Boomboom22 · 07/10/2023 15:23

Radical feminists at the extreme always wanted separatism and political lesbianism. Most people who are called terfs are very far from rf beliefs, for example they are quite likely to be anti separating childbirth from females through external technology which rf would usually support eg Purdy, Firestone, maybe even Greer.

Froodwithatowel · 07/10/2023 16:37

It's a need within the very tribal, very 'everything and everyone must be in labelled boxes and everyone/everything is All Good or All Bad' gender ideology political movement.

There must be baddies, they must have a name, they must be In A Box With A Label.

The fact that women wanting rights don't all agree and can cope with varied views and opinions, don't belong to one gang or don't necessarily agree with or identify with any gang at all (and won't embrace an identity and flag for an Im Not In A Gang labelled box either), don't all vote the same way, represent a wide range of faiths, beliefs, voting habits, sexuality, diversity, colour, shape, disability etc etc etc and don't fit in one box is even more of a reason why they're annoying to the movement. As usual it's a case of 'we identify as our reality being this - SHUT UP WITH THE INCONVENIENT FACTS YOU BITCHES!'

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