Page 11 | Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

Imnobody4 · 2023-10-02T21:41:34+00:00

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds. [[https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?s=19&t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19]] On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

viques · 03/10/2023 15:06

gotomomo · 03/10/2023 13:13

@jlpth

Well said. One size fits all rhetoric can have unintended consequences.

My friend is f-m and I doubt any of you would think he was anything but natal male. Thankfully he's very well treated including his (male) sports team. Whilst I do acknowledge in reverse it's a bit more complicated but there are m-f trans who have been through surgery, and shouldn't be on a male ward or in a male prison for all the reasons we don't want mixed wards or prisons... we need to ensure everyone is treated fairly, third spaces being available as necessary

But your friend is not a man, and never will be. Your friend will probably end up with horrendous osteoporosis due to the hormones taken , but will never have to be treated for prostate cancer. They are as much a man as any transwoman is a woman. So what is the point of “third spaces” , since presumably your friend would not want to be in a third space with transwomen, just as they wouldn’t want to be in a third space with your friend. Does that mean there needs to be third and fourth spaces? The only reasonable solution is sex based wards/ prisons etc.

literalviolence · 03/10/2023 15:06

BeetleDeuce · 03/10/2023 13:27

Please evidence that women are remaining in relationships because there are men in refuges. I don’t believe this. Most refuges have been closed down over the last 13 years and those who remain are strictly biological sex only. Contracts May stipulate all genders but most of these people are in single units anyway.

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Stonewall admits that TW have been infiltrating these services for years. https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/stonewall_and_nfpsynergy_report.pdf

'Most of these people' is not reassuring if you don't want to be housed with a male.

As to whether that means women stay in abusive relationships for longer - I am not sure if anyone bothers to do the research about that cos, you know, they're just women.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/stonewall_and_nfpsynergy_report.pdf

PorcelinaV · 03/10/2023 15:07

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 14:41

The GRA was Labour but I entirely agree on the rest

I think Labour could have allowed same sex marriage instead?

Yes to elite and unelectable system though

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My mistake, I should have checked who was in government at that time...

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 15:09

Femaleismysex · 03/10/2023 15:01

It made the news in Spain!

Brilliant

I’m happy about that. Thanks to all who didn’t give up despite so many attacks

Small steps but good ones

literalviolence · 03/10/2023 15:11

Upsizer · 03/10/2023 12:55

This will never happen!

I know a senior nurse who is MTF and no one knows about it. She transitioned thirty years ago. She’s tiny and you would never guess because she completely passes.

Should she come off all clinical work now, or tell every patient her background?

What about the legislation that makes it a crime to reveal someone’s past transitioning history?

This person is male. I consent to intimate care only from women. If your friend lies about her biological sex to me and does intimate care anyway - pretending to be female, then I think they belong in jail TBH.

Life's tough when you are so unable to accept yourself as the biological sex that you are and everyone who has told these people that they can change sex or that they can just pretend is complicit in making things worse for people like your friend.

Your friend has a job where her biological sex impacts on others. If they want to lie about their background, they might need to change career.

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:18

Femaleismysex · 03/10/2023 15:01

It made the news in Spain!

Do you have a link?

PorcelinaV · 03/10/2023 15:20

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 03/10/2023 14:47

However, apparently the GRA was forced on them by the European Court of Human Rights.

It wasn't. It was a fudge because the Labour party (or, TBF, most other parties at that point I think) didn't want to allow same sex marriage. They could have done that straight off - benefiting far more people and meeting the ECHR requirements - and skipped the 'same sex people can't marry unless one of them pretends they're really the opposite sex' step. If tou go back to the original debates, it's explicity stated in Hansard that they were taking the GRA route to avoid allowing same sex marriage.

The ECHR requirements appear to be about more than just marriage.

They found a violation of Article 8. (In addition to the marriage issue.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin_v_United_Kingdom

Goodwin v United Kingdom - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin_v_United_Kingdom

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:25

PorcelinaV · 03/10/2023 15:20

The ECHR requirements appear to be about more than just marriage.

They found a violation of Article 8. (In addition to the marriage issue.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin_v_United_Kingdom

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I would really like to see the Article 8 argument re-tested in the courts.

If an individual is deemed to have a right to privacy meaning that their transgender status should not be revealed without their consent, firstly that is going to be a theoretical right in the vast majority of cases since very few people can convincingly pass as a member of the opposite sex, and secondly that clearly conflicts with other people's rights in certain circumstances, for example, when it comes to single sex spaces, or offenders being able to change their names and identities more easily.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 03/10/2023 15:33

The idea that society could be forced to see men as women in all situations is clearly bonkers.

I know lots of people claim to have lovely friends who transitioned to the point no-one would ever know their true sex, but the fact is, lots of people do look like and behave like their actual, not desired sex.

It means that men with gender have expose themselves to women, have raped women and as a result, women feel uncomfortable with these men. Anyone who is critising women for wanting single sex spaces is blaming the wrong people.

Im sure the passing TW will be upset by the increasing number of policies introduced, effectively stopping them from hiding their sex, but how was it ever going to work otherwise?

If a man doesnt want his sex to be known, he cant be in situations where sex is important, its that simple.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 15:34

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:25

I would really like to see the Article 8 argument re-tested in the courts.

If an individual is deemed to have a right to privacy meaning that their transgender status should not be revealed without their consent, firstly that is going to be a theoretical right in the vast majority of cases since very few people can convincingly pass as a member of the opposite sex, and secondly that clearly conflicts with other people's rights in certain circumstances, for example, when it comes to single sex spaces, or offenders being able to change their names and identities more easily.

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It isn't so much that it stops people asking about the legal status of a person. I believe that there are exceptions when someone reasonably needs the information (i.e. an employer looking to recruit a nurse for, say, gynae care, where there may be a single sex exemption, for example).

It's more that it lends support to the idea that sex is something that is self declared, and a status that can't be discussed, that 'misgendering' is forbidden.

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:35

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 03/10/2023 15:33

The idea that society could be forced to see men as women in all situations is clearly bonkers.

I know lots of people claim to have lovely friends who transitioned to the point no-one would ever know their true sex, but the fact is, lots of people do look like and behave like their actual, not desired sex.

It means that men with gender have expose themselves to women, have raped women and as a result, women feel uncomfortable with these men. Anyone who is critising women for wanting single sex spaces is blaming the wrong people.

Im sure the passing TW will be upset by the increasing number of policies introduced, effectively stopping them from hiding their sex, but how was it ever going to work otherwise?

If a man doesnt want his sex to be known, he cant be in situations where sex is important, its that simple.

I doubted myself a while ago after my mum sent me a photo from a family friend's wedding and I couldn't tell which one of two people in the photo was the trans woman. Turns out they both were.

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:41

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 15:34

It isn't so much that it stops people asking about the legal status of a person. I believe that there are exceptions when someone reasonably needs the information (i.e. an employer looking to recruit a nurse for, say, gynae care, where there may be a single sex exemption, for example).

It's more that it lends support to the idea that sex is something that is self declared, and a status that can't be discussed, that 'misgendering' is forbidden.

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But surely the idea that "misgendering" is forbidden is in conflict with Articles 9 (freedom of thought, conscience and religion), and 10 (freedom of expression), and the idea that women cannot say that trans women are not women and act accordingly is also in conflict with Articles 11 (freedom of association) and 14 (discrimination).

Or are some people more equal than others, when it comes to exercising their convention rights?

Signalbox · 03/10/2023 15:45

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 03/10/2023 14:47

However, apparently the GRA was forced on them by the European Court of Human Rights.

It wasn't. It was a fudge because the Labour party (or, TBF, most other parties at that point I think) didn't want to allow same sex marriage. They could have done that straight off - benefiting far more people and meeting the ECHR requirements - and skipped the 'same sex people can't marry unless one of them pretends they're really the opposite sex' step. If tou go back to the original debates, it's explicity stated in Hansard that they were taking the GRA route to avoid allowing same sex marriage.

I can never understand how allowing some people to pretend they are the opposite sex so they can be married avoided same sex marriage. Didn't it facilitate it? And why was it deemed to be so important for this group to access marriage when other same-sex attracted people had to go the civil partnership route? Also what were the demands that ECHR were making that meant that the GRA was a work around?

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:49

Signalbox · 03/10/2023 15:45

I can never understand how allowing some people to pretend they are the opposite sex so they can be married avoided same sex marriage. Didn't it facilitate it? And why was it deemed to be so important for this group to access marriage when other same-sex attracted people had to go the civil partnership route? Also what were the demands that ECHR were making that meant that the GRA was a work around?

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It avoided same sex marriage in a legal sense by making someone with a gender recognition certificate legally the opposite sex.

It facilitated it in the actual sense of allowing two people of the same sex to marry each other when this was otherwise prohibited.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it was deemed necessary for trans people to be able to do this but not gay people, to the point where they introduced a mechanism for legally recognising a same sex relationship as a heterosexual one rather than simply legalising same sex marriage.

RoyalCorgi · 03/10/2023 15:53

I cannot for the life of me understand why it was deemed necessary for trans people to be able to do this but not gay people, to the point where they introduced a mechanism for legally recognising a same sex relationship as a heterosexual one rather than simply legalising same sex marriage

It's especially bonkers because at around the same time as the GRA, the Labour government introduced civil partnerships for same-sex people. They could have killed two birds with one stone and legalised same-sex marriage.

Signalbox · 03/10/2023 15:58

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 15:49

It avoided same sex marriage in a legal sense by making someone with a gender recognition certificate legally the opposite sex.

It facilitated it in the actual sense of allowing two people of the same sex to marry each other when this was otherwise prohibited.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it was deemed necessary for trans people to be able to do this but not gay people, to the point where they introduced a mechanism for legally recognising a same sex relationship as a heterosexual one rather than simply legalising same sex marriage.

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It's so weird isn't it. The logic is just completely absent.

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 03/10/2023 16:02

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 11:54

Christ almighty. India on Baron Nicholson:

'old banger, who in her final years, has found an acceptable vehicle for her last salvos of hate and bigotry, before her guaranteed descent to hell'

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Sounds like projection to me

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 03/10/2023 16:06

It's so weird isn't it. The logic is just completely absent.

Its why i dont believe the idea that GRA was introduced, even in part, because of the inability to marry someone of the same sex.

It was obviously just an excused to give men female birth certificates and privacy.

EasternStandard · 03/10/2023 16:06

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 03/10/2023 16:02

Sounds like projection to me

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Bloody hell those male views never die do they

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 16:08

RoyalCorgi · 03/10/2023 15:53

I cannot for the life of me understand why it was deemed necessary for trans people to be able to do this but not gay people, to the point where they introduced a mechanism for legally recognising a same sex relationship as a heterosexual one rather than simply legalising same sex marriage

It's especially bonkers because at around the same time as the GRA, the Labour government introduced civil partnerships for same-sex people. They could have killed two birds with one stone and legalised same-sex marriage.

I think that the early 2000s would be a really interesting period for British politican historians to study.

It's the new millennium, you have Tony Blair fresh into his second term as prime minister, cool Britannia, it's boom time.

In current affairs you have 9/11 and the Iraq war, and on the legislative agenda you have civil partnerships, legal sex changes and fox hunting. WTF?

20 years on, Tony Blair is largely in disgrace to the point where the left wants him to STFU even though he was the only leader in recent memory who won them any elections and even though he is often right about stuff, civil partnerships didn't even last 15 years before they were superseded by same sex marriage, legal sex changes have blown up into an all out culture war which may yet cause Labour to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the next election, and still nobody gives a shit about fox hunting.

Were our MPs just so distracted by the shit show going on in Iraq that they forgot what the words "male" and "female" mean as they nodded along to the arguments in favour of the Gender Recognition Bill?

TrishTrix · 03/10/2023 16:13

I struggle with this one. Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

I can think of several transgender acquaintances who have lived as women for a long time. They have had extensive surgery (don't know full extent of bottom, but definitely top surgery) and currently use female facilities. I worry that placing them into a male ward will place them at risk and I'm sure the announcement today will have upset them.

The health outcomes for the trans community are already poor and placing additional barriers around access is not going to help things. But equally healthcare needs to be safe for all users and simply opening the doors to female only spaces to mitigate this has not been safe / reduced accessibility to biological woman.

Do we need to move to all cubicles for toilets, changing and hospital??

MargotBamborough · 03/10/2023 16:14

TrishTrix · 03/10/2023 16:13

I struggle with this one. Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

I can think of several transgender acquaintances who have lived as women for a long time. They have had extensive surgery (don't know full extent of bottom, but definitely top surgery) and currently use female facilities. I worry that placing them into a male ward will place them at risk and I'm sure the announcement today will have upset them.

The health outcomes for the trans community are already poor and placing additional barriers around access is not going to help things. But equally healthcare needs to be safe for all users and simply opening the doors to female only spaces to mitigate this has not been safe / reduced accessibility to biological woman.

Do we need to move to all cubicles for toilets, changing and hospital??

With the greatest of respect.

Why is this women's problem to solve?

yogasaurus · 03/10/2023 16:19

I worry that placing them into a male ward will place them at risk and I'm sure the announcement today will have upset them.

This is how women feel when males inc those presenting aa women, are placed in female wards.

as PP said, this isn’t women’s problem to solve, women have been sacrificed for this cause for long enough already

TrishTrix · 03/10/2023 16:22

@MargotBamborough it’s not.

and part of the reason we’ve ended up in this mess is because women have sucked it up to “be kind”.

it’s also one of my main argument points when yet another male gay friend lectured me about this issue. They aren’t being made unsafe by letting trans men into their spaces. Bio women are.

And I’m fucking sick of men telling women what to do.

I’m just conflicted. And not sure how we (society) fix it for everyone.

Leafstamp · 03/10/2023 16:23

TrishTrix · 03/10/2023 16:13

I struggle with this one. Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

I can think of several transgender acquaintances who have lived as women for a long time. They have had extensive surgery (don't know full extent of bottom, but definitely top surgery) and currently use female facilities. I worry that placing them into a male ward will place them at risk and I'm sure the announcement today will have upset them.

The health outcomes for the trans community are already poor and placing additional barriers around access is not going to help things. But equally healthcare needs to be safe for all users and simply opening the doors to female only spaces to mitigate this has not been safe / reduced accessibility to biological woman.

Do we need to move to all cubicles for toilets, changing and hospital??

What does 'lived as women' mean?

Men who think they are women are not 'living as women' because they aren't women. What they might be doing is living their own stereotyped view of that they think being a woman is about.