Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

[Imnobody4]

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

What makes you think these males who identify as transwomen (and may still have penises) would be at risk in a male ward?

Also, you used the term 'lived as women'. How does a man 'live as a woman'?

I think third spaces and gender neutral facilities in most kind of situations will offer dignity and protection for all. As for hospitals - many new hopsitals are now going over to single rooms - so being on a male wing would not be so compromising for trans identified men.

Men who think they are women are not 'living as women' because they aren't women. What they might be doing is living their own stereotyped view of that they think being a woman is about.

Exactly. They are pretending to be women, living as a male fantasy of how a woman lives.

Also, you used the term 'lived as women'. How does a man 'live as a woman'?
I imagine it means insisting on using women's facilities such as toilets, changing rooms, and hospital wards...
Oh, and reporting those who use to buy into the pronoun bollocks (or correctly sex them) to the Gestspo.

I should think that being unable to accept reality and being unable control everyone's thoughts feelings and speech would lead to poor outcomes. Dont you think helping people to face reality is a better use of time and money than attempting to re organise society to pretend reality doesn't exist in order to enable people to carry on ignoring it?

Barriers are there for many people. For many reasons. We could be tackling racism, misogyny, sexism, poor education, employment issues etc
Problems that actually exist and are the cause of so many poor outcomes and barriers to helathcare. Colluding with identities ,that realky are the business of the person who claims to have it and nothing that anyone else should feel obligated to participate in , is simply a first world manufactured problem that is basically a choice. You can choose to face reality or ignore it but the consequences are on you and you only.

We are a dichotomously sexed species. There's no nuance about it - we are male, or female.

And can I ask why you think a transwoman would be 'at risk' on a male ward, what evidence you are basing this belief on?

Does this mean an end to mixed sex wards more generally then? I was on a ward with men (not the ones in frocks) the last time I was in hospital. Transwomen would have made no difference they let men in anyway.

There shouldn't be mixed sex wards, absolutely.

But I'd prefer to be on a ward that was openly mixed sex, with all the risks clearly acknowledged, than one that purports to be 'single sex' when it isn't.

Yes of course the devil here is that mixed sex wards exist. So really this announcement may be of no moment in practice.

Just to repeat: protecting women's privacy, dignity, consent, equality, including equality of access to health care, and their safety and freedom from a rape such as the one Baroness Nicholson dragged into the sunlight is not 'increasing barriers to access' for male people with TQ+ identities.

Their health needs and access can be met without providing them with access to non consenting female bodies. They really can.

If we're talking about issues of access, I'm more concerned at this point by the women from orthodox faiths, women who have been traumatised, CSA survivors, DV and DA survivors, women with disabilities and women who just plain don't feel safe or comfortable to receive nursing care on a ward with someone they know damn well to be a male. With nothing more than hope that he doesn't choose to make their hospital stay a whole lot horrible than it already is. That's his choice, not theirs.

Who is counting all these missing women? The ones no one seems to even know about, who don't have people rushing to offer single rooms, who don't have MPs ranting for them about bigots who don't care about their needs or understand them, who don't have very expensive tax payer funded extremist groups lobbying privately for their benefit behind the scenes?

I'm ok with mixed-sex wards that are billed as such, and that are mixed-sex for an identifiable clinical reason. Eg where intensive care wards are mixed in order to achieve the necessary concentration of equipment and expertise; or where mental health wards have mixed living areas (alongside separate and secure sleeping areas) to try to create a therapeutic setting.

I'm sure there are quite a few of these, but the key thing is that they will have been designed and risk-assessed as a mixed-sex environment, with measures taken accordingly. What we have at the moment is a situation in which spaces intended as single sex, and represented as single sex, are in fact mixed sex.

@TrishTrix I honestly do not care. Women are not human shields for men.

If some men feel unsafe using male facilities it is up to men to fix it not women.

Exactly.
Do you think there was all this hand wringing from men when women did not have access to public bathrooms until the late 1880s, or the vote, or equal pay for the same job?
Can you imagine all the men asking "what about the poor WOMEN though?".
It just didn't happen. We had to fight for our own rights and freedoms.

Trans people will just have to do the same and not expect women to squash further up to make room for them just because they don't feel "comfortable" with the men.
They don't give a shit about all the women THEY are making feel uncomfortable, so why the hell should we give a flying feck what they think?

Fucking right.

And where is the compassion and worry for women who face barriers and can't use and are self excluding? Or are scared or worried or fearful or anxious or angry or uncertain about having males in their spaces? Or being called 'bigots' or 'transphobic' for requesting single sex care, so are just going along with it despite not wanting to?

They're fucking invisible, of course.

Where were all those nice pals sticking up for women in women's sport? Where were all those nice pals they sticking up for women who were in prison having to put up with rapist? Where were all those nice pals saying that it was totally out of order to threaten rape or death to women for whatever reason? Where were all those nice pals saying that males trying to cop off with lesbians was homophobic and coercive and not acceptable?

Yeah.

Tumbleweed.

Honestly?

Not my fucking problem.

They were sold a lie that they could be female. They aren't and they never were.

That's part of the issue. They were sold a fantasy that is at odds with reality and it has an impact on many many others.

It's not women who are in the wrong on this. It's the politicians that enabled it.

Binary male and female wards (or changing rooms) don't capture the nuance as society.

The idea that facilities should be designed in such a way as to 'capture the nuance as society' is laughable. What would it mean to design hospital facilities that 'capture nuance' (other than the choice of pictures on the walls)?
Wards are designed to to reflect objective realities. Such as clinical need, health & safety, the reality of material sex, and the reality that some men (regardless of their gender identity) are a danger to women.

Again honestly...

I think it's more likely to result in MORE mixed sex wards because there aren't facilities available for women and it gives hospitals an excuse with tight budgets to say they can't provide single sex spaces at all.

But it looks good for the Tories at their conference.

If hospitals were being built to need them how many women's toilets to men's toilets would there be?

Even when working out how many portaloos you need for a festival, portaloo companies (thanks world scout jamboree for drawing my attention to this) have a formula which includes consideration for the number of women (women need considerably more provision) and the age of users (those who are elderly or very young need more provision) are calculated.

But in buildings we are stuck with this data idea of 50:50 at best and then women's facilities also get the shitty end of the shit when providing gendered (mixed sex) facilities.

It's like the dark ages and hardly progressive.

I have a friend who is a straw-man where exactly should he go?

Here 😊

Well what does he identify as?

A scarecrow or a stick to beat women with?

@TrishTrix
I'm sure this will explain it all for you: https://hazelappleyard.co.uk/feminism/a-thorough-investigation-into-the-nhs-decision-why-are-transwomen-being-banned-from-womens-hospital-wards/

Actually H&S regs stipulate specific ratios of toilets, dependent on sex.

Women are supposed to get more provision.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/20/made

Consultation on 'gender neutral' toilets here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper

Not good enough unless you have multiple strawmen friends. All of whom have had the full range of surgical interventions and are indistinguishable from women.

They can all be treated on the straw ward.