Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

[Imnobody4]

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

My friend is f-m and I doubt any of you would think he was anything but natal male. Thankfully he's very well treated including his (male) sports team.

No matter what "any of us" would think, if your friend ever went to prison in the UK it would be a women's prison. Because the other prisoners would find out pretty fast what sex your friend is and your friend would be in grave danger in a men's prison.

It's been tried in the past. But not for long.

I think the phrase 'dogwhistle' is actually illuminating, but not in the way many people seem to think it is.

I am also sick and tired of hearing women say I wouldn't mind, why say that? What is the point of saying it? Is it to shame those who do mind?

This.

It makes me angry too, and I do not apologise for that. When a woman says 'oh but I don't mind and it doesn't bother me personally if I and women lose those rights because it wasn't one I was really using' she either has no idea about other women's realities outside of her own world, or does not care. Or she honestly thinks male egos should come before women's equality, access and inclusion.

Women are currently in life threatening relationships because they cannot go to refuges, women have been raped in hospital wards and prisons, and a lot of this was wangled because women, instead of caring about other women and the vulnerabilities and protected characteristics of women, thought it was no skin off their nose to pat male egos or show their social virtue and progressiveness.

The thing is, eventually you will lose a right that will hurt you as other women have been hurt by this political movement. That's how a lot of us ended up here. At this point, it may be too late for you and other women to get those rights back.

Perhaps they could have a system similar to the one for spent convictions. In most circumstances the person does not have to disclose, in some instances they must.

@Upsizer fwiw I'm not unsympathetic to your friend, I assume you've know them since before they transitioned or, at least sometimes, they're fine with disclosing their status. But this is the situation that tras have led us to. Any man can claim to be trans and expect to be treated as a woman, beard, penis, and all. Tw like your friend are being affected and I can't see a way for that to be avoided. But put the blame for that where it lies.

The concept of ‘passing’ is absolutely indicative of a deception. Just because an HCP feels that can deceive people about their sex, that doesn’t make it OK to do so. Patients have a right to make informed choices about their care.

People do have career choices. If having to disclose your sex to patients makes you unhappy, then health or social care is unlikely to be a suitable form
of employment for you.

Please evidence that women are remaining in relationships because there are men in refuges. I don’t believe this. Most refuges have been closed down over the last 13 years and those who remain are strictly biological sex only. Contracts May stipulate all genders but most of these people are in single units anyway.

Haven't read the whole thread but the BMA rep on the today show suggested single rooms were being recommended.

In real life I’ve rarely come across patients who would ask for same sex care other than in mental health wards (or some geriatric). But they usually ask once they’ve seen that a nurse is male.

Really? I've always asked for same sex care for as long as I've made my own doctors appointments (so for about 35 years). For GP appointments, sexual health appointments and any other appointment where I felt vulnerable. I was sometimes told I might have to wait a bit longer for an appointment but that was a price I was prepared to pay. It's only been in the last 5 years that anyone has raised so much as an eyebrow in relation to this. I find it hard to believe that it is rare for other women to do the same.

How exactly do you imagine anyone would evidence a cohort of women who simply wouldn’t consider using refuge services because they may be mixed sex?

Ever heard of Edinburgh Rape Crisis?

Run by a transwoman. No GRC.

What about Brighton Survivor's Network, being sued by a rape survivor for failing to provide single sex service she could use?

We have had more than one woman on here talk about how they've self excluded from services/refuges etc because they know they are mixed sex or 'single gender'.

Refuge manager, speaking on Women's Hour, Radio 4, two women who would not approach or use services even distantly because the women's provision was mixed sex. Her words to paraphrase, this will inevitably end in deaths.

Women's refuges are absolutely not female only. Have you run into the male refuge manager in Scotland? Or seen the thread on MN where women in a refuge including a MNetter went to a meeting to try and explain their distress at being in spaces with a male based on their trauma and need to recover, and the staff laughed at them? And later denied the meeting had happened?

I'm afraid you've missed an awful lot of information.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/new-nhs-guidance-could-prevent-same-sex-care-for-women

'The Equality and Human Rights Commission is the statutory regulator of equalities law. In relation to same-sex care, a spokesperson told me: “Failure to meet a patient’s request could amount to unlawful indirect sex or religion or belief discrimination, if it could not be objectively justified.”'

https://can-sg.org/frequently-asked-questions/how-do-single-sex-policies-for-healthcare-facilities-and-requests-for-same-sex-healthcare-practitioners-currently-apply-within-the-nhs/

'This NHS commitment to the provision of single-sex accommodation, where clinically appropriate, is confirmed in the NHS Constitution for England (Department of Health and Social Care, 2021), which writes: “that if you are admitted to hospital, you will not have to share sleeping accommodation with patients of the opposite sex, except where appropriate.” '

'One woman found that her request for a female clinician during breast screening led to her being described as a ‘transphobe’ and used as an example of ‘transphobia’ in guidance issued to NHS staff (Hellen, 2019). Another patient became distressed and embarrassed to be seen by someone “obviously male” when she had asked for a female practitioner to perform her cervical smear test (Paterson, 2017).'

'Failing to provide same-sex clinical care when this has been requested by a patient undermines consent and exposes both staff and patients to boundary breaches and violations. Patients have a right to bodily autonomy, with informed decision-making regarding how and by whom their care is delivered. In addition, consent to care is not irrevocable and can be withdrawn. Clinical actions (such as cervical screening or a digital rectal examination), would amount to sexual or criminal assault should they be attempted without the full consent of the patient. A female patient may withhold consent for intimate care to be provided by male clinicians, however they identify. Such decisions must be understood and respected by healthcare providers. A woman may determine that only female clinicians will be suitable for performing a particular healthcare procedure. In those circumstances, practitioner sex is a genuine occupational requirement (and a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim), thus exclusion of other clinicians based on sex (regardless of gender reassignment) is permissible under EA2010.'

Well this announcement seems to have upset some people.

It is staggering how saying 'your needs should be met, but the meeting of them cannot include providing you with access to non consenting females or attempting to deceive them into accepting other sex care for your own purposes' seems to get right up some noses.

It's almost like if this part can't be involved then why bother?#

@IdleAnimations thanks for posting, that's horrifying.
we need to realize none of these parties care about women.
it's gotten to the stage where right-wing wants us to be enslaved and left-wing want us to shut up and take whatever is thrown at us. It's so isolating

@IdleAnimations Fucking terrible isn't it? That poor woman. It's like something out of a horror film about a cult.

Agreed that all this happened under a Tory government. Shame on them.

Do you really look at SNP and Wales and think that’s looking better?

And to the left governments in western democracies. Which one would you like to emulate? Canada? NZ? Other

I’ve rarely come across patients who would ask for same sex care other than in mental health wards (or some geriatric)

Just taking note of the 'the only women who would want single sex care anyway are mentally ill or old' slur there.

Inclusion.
Diversity.
Equality.
Intersectionality.

They're not just words for TQ+ people!

The concept of ‘passing’ is absolutely indicative of a deception. Just because an HCP feels that can deceive people about their sex, that doesn’t make it OK to do so. Patients have a right to make informed choices about their care.

Also, who decides if someone is 'passing'? I know many TW think they look female but they really, really don't. What criteria could possibly be written into law or policy because, let's face it, fake tits and a bob haircut don't mean you pass.

Just taking note of the 'the only women who would want single sex care anyway are mentally ill or old' slur there

Absolutely

Totally.

The indignance that a male may be forced to be honest about his sex is astonishing when you think that the alternative is suggesting that women should be decieved into accepting care from someone they wouldn't consent to if they knew their sex.

But then, worth remembering Stonewall campaigned to have 'Sex by Deception' removed from the law books.

No, that’s just been my experience, but I have been working in this area in secondary care rather than primary care, which is where most of these examples are coming from tbf.

Wouldn't it be lovely if women mattered enough that our safety was seen as paramount.

There is evidence that allowing males in women's wards is dangerous.

There shouldn't have to be a consultation to keep vulnerable women safe.

Fucking entitled men and their supporters make me sick.