Trans women to be banned from female hospital wards

[Imnobody4]

Yes¡ Just done a little victory dance. I hope it really is as good as it sounds.

https://twitter.com/Baroness_Nichol/status/1708956051683295391?t=daMUSC8mbF_9sSi9ynIsIg&s=19

On Tuesday, Steve Barclay will announce proposals to push back against “wokery” in the health service that has led to women’s rights being increasingly sidelined.The changes would give men and women the right to be cared for on wards only shared by people of their own biological sex, and to have intimate care provided by those of the same sex.Mr Barclay said the plan would mean the return of “a common-sense approach to sex and equality”, ensuring that women’s dignity was protected and their voices heard.The proposals follow concerns from patients and staff about biological men being allowed on to women’s hospital wards. In 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single-sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified.

Well, I and many others do mind any TW being given access to women's spaces. Pray tell how do you know they are genuine? How do you know they have had the full sherbangle? Around 90% of TW do not have their penis and testicles removed.

There is zero evidence to support that TW with or without their male genitalia are unsafe in men's toilets or anywhere else divided by biological sex. If TW don't want to share with men that is their problem and up to them to suggest alternative provision which does not include what is provided for women.

Frankly I don't fucking care if you or TW think it is inappropriate for them to be in men's spaces, the women's are not for their use and it is a whole lot more than inappropriate for them to use them.

Try thinking about women and girls and putting them first for once instead of wringing your hands over men and their wants.

IMO it doesn't matter what is driving it and if it wrong foots Labour, then so what? They only have themselves to blame.

Yes, I agree motivation isn't that important.

A lot of people parroting, "it's a culture war distraction".

Well OK, let's assume that the Tory Party are cynically using this issue, and don't actually care about it.

That says something about the integrity of the Tory Party, but it says nothing about the policy itself. It can still be that it's a real issue, and political parties should be properly concerned with responding to it.

Women's rights are not a culture war. Nor is the safety of children. Or the truth.

Genuine transperson?

It doesn’t matter what you have chopped off or stuck on; you never belong in any single sex spaces of the opposite to your biological sex.

Thankfully common sense seems to be returning.

Quite. We weren’t consulted when they started putting men on women’s wards in the first place. Why bother now?

No understanding of the concerns that women have at all. Just vile abusive hate. No wonder women want to keep the rights that protect them.

https://twitter.com/IndiaWilloughby/status/1709154647775035549

Even if all parties are committed to single sex wards, its going to take more than a strongly worded policy to change anything in practice.

We need to assess the privacy element in the GRA, the number of people who have changed their gender on NHS records and how many people have their gender recorded as their sex. We need to look at every policy in every trust to ensure that gender isnt prioritised over sex. And crucially, train staff to understand the importance of sex and how that differs from gender. Theres been a massive leap from referring to a patent with their preferred pronouns to allowing men to be in womens wards if that what they want.

Part of the problem is that government and hospitals dont know the numbers they are dealing with, and how and who to treat as a 'person with gender'. Theres about 7,000 people with a GRC, 260,000 recorded themselves as a type of trans on the census, an unknown number who have changed their 'gender' on their medical records, none need ever to have surgery or medical treatment or look anything like their preferred sex/gender. So a patient arriving on a ward may recorded as female, but is obviously male when they arrive. How can the hospital manage that situation?

I suspect the reason its been left this long to sort out, is because its too much of a problem to sort out.

It’s coming up more now because men become more emboldened each year.

And more and more people, of both sexes, are waking up to the fact that the majority of transwomen don't have surgery. For many transwomen growing their hair long, slapping on make up and wearing a pretty dress seems to be enough to make them women,. I would say that the vast majority of us don't agree, but we are not allowed to speak out, or we will be called transphobes.

The excuse of "culture war" is a technique to argue that nothing should be done. It's the same as stating things are "popularist" or "far-right", it's an excuse to argue against when people don't have any valid arguments.

Men do not belong in women's wards, full stop.
I don't care if they have had their penis amputated or not, they are still men.
As someone upthread said, does that mean that men with penectomies due to cancer, or men whose penis is effectively "useless" anyway because of impotence etc, can all be placed on the female ward? It's a ridiculous suggestion.

The problem is not the penis.
The problem is that it is a man, and remains a man despite whatever surgeries they may or may not have had.

What about certain religious/orthodox women who cannot share spaces with men? Are their voices worth nothing just to appease the feelings of a man who, for some reason, wants to get closer to women in a vulnerable state?
I don't care how he feels to be honest, I care about the ill women in hospital who deserves to feel safe and keep her dignity and privacy intact.

Let trans women campaign for another ward, it's not women's jobs to budge over and allow trans women into every area of their lives and safe spaces.
While they're at it they can campaign for their own sports leagues, changing rooms, prison wings and refuges.
They do not belong in the women's ones.

Unfortunately the TRAs will mobilise and bombard the consultation giving a false impression of what the public wants

Christ almighty. India on Baron Nicholson:

'old banger, who in her final years, has found an acceptable vehicle for her last salvos of hate and bigotry, before her guaranteed descent to hell'

The Trust that lied to the police and victim, saying the patient cannot have been raped because there wasnt a man on the ward, needs to be prosecuted and heavily fined. It needed to be headline news.

While theres no consequences for carrying on with the lie, nothing will change.

India Willoughby absolutely HATES women, it permeates everything they say, they particularly seem to despise older women.
Probably because they know they will never be one. You hate what you cannot have.

I've no doubt they are pouring over this thread as they seem to have an alert on any thread where their name is mentioned.
Yes India, you don't belong on a female hospital ward.

(awaits the previously posted picture of India with a hospital wrist band on saying "female". I can put a name badge on saying I am a brain surgeon, it doesn't make it true dear).

Amen to that 😍

You can add my dad, my cousin and my bestie to the list. Lovely men, all – but none of them belong on the women's ward.

India's spiteful jealousy drips from every word.

Seriously, what is wrong with you? I agreed that I don't think tw should be in women's hospitals wards (i also dont think that male personal care nurses should be there either, but heyho), I just said I personally wouldn't mind. I also said I didn't think womens rights should be pushed aside. Stop being so angry and read what I actually said, I am on your side here. I just think there is a middle ground and it isn't up to women to find it.

Identifying as a woman and respecting women are very different concepts.

I hear you. Many of us have tried to find this mythical middle ground, over the years.

Eventually we have found that the idea there is a 'middle ground' in which 'good' men are allowed to access women's spaces, but 'bad' men are forbidden is exactly the problem.

TM always only ever mentioned in passing when it's useful to try and stop women resisting male people in personal, vulnerable spaces.

I honestly don't care what provision is made for TQ people, as there will be a whole range of genders and identities in there - I'm sure arrangements will be made that provide them with privacy and dignity and work for them.

But I don't know how you heard 'no men of any identity to be permitted on women's wards (following at least one rape and a lot of distress)' and heard 'everyone forced onto the wards of their sex omg women will have to cope with women with beards'. Always that attempted gotcha of 'if you resist the man who identifies as a woman in the next bed while you have your catheter inserted and try not to die of humiliation and anxiety at his spectating, then you'll have to deal with female people who look outwardly like men and then you'll be sorry.'

No. Seriously not. They are female. And they usually manage to care about the feelings and needs of other females: something totally missing from the population sharing views with India Willoughby.

It should be up to TQ+ people as to what third spaces fit their needs: they just cannot be provided with non consenting women. And if you're delighted to get your kit off in front of random males no one's stopping you either. You just don't get to gift wrap and hand over other women to demonstrate your virtue, because apparently you lack any capacity to understand that some women's life experiences and situations are different to yours and female people's needs and feelings are equal to those of a male.

This clip at the beginning is pretty strong support from a Tory:

Was just about to say this. It's easy for the Tories to talk the talk - let's save the victory dance until they actually do something. Don't forget we are where we are under the Tory watch.

If being trans exists, as a state of being, then anyone who calls themself 'trans' is trans.

They're just not the opposite sex.

I agree with this @nauticant
Where we are now has been on 13 years Tory govt.

they are electioneering pure and simple, they know public opinion and will use these sorts of issues at every single opportunity they can, increasingly as the next election draws near, in my view.
They see the Lib Dems and greens even worse, and talk of any sort of Labour coalition will just fire up the Tories even more. Labour doesn’t seem to have paid much attention to those women saying they could no longer vote for them because of this issue, until quite recently when it appears they may be listening more, but are they to be trusted who knows, I’m not sure I do.

We are where we are due to the 2004 GRA

It legislated for all this to happen