How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Maybe sport will move to something less sexual and more biological like weight categories.

As Helebore said, this is nonsense. Sex categories are biological categories. And the most comprehensive ones. Weight categories wouldn't account for reach, relative lung capacity, Q angles, fast-twitch muscle propotions, skull thickness ... and all the other biological differences.

I actually support mix sex wards dictated by medical speciality not gender. Single gender bays are ideal if possible, but it's about the best medical care in my book not being comfortable

When I first read this I thought 'that's someone who's not had a stay in hospital' but on a second reading I'm wondering if you have ever spent any time in a hospital - or stepped through the doors of one at all. Go for a wander in one sometime, wards are divided by specialty, and then - where relevant☆ - secondarily by sex. And when you've done that and understand how a hospital is laid out, have a read of the assault stats and try thinking again about why people who may have difficulty moving/running away could possibly prefer a single-sex space (plus privacy and dignity when partially clothed, and feeling generally uncomfortable and vulnerable).

☆ Despite everything, the call for male maternity wards is still somewhat limited.

And comfort is part - an important part - of good medical care.

Exactly that

Mixed wards with bays dictated by gender not sex assigned at birth if possible. If not totally mixed - done by speciality

Domestic violence happens from both sides having victims together is a potential for moving forward as victims.

I don't think woman need encouraging into certain professions as ideally we need to stop being men vs woman so no encouragement will be needed. Our friendship group is made of many high flying men and woman, non of us woman have been held back by being woman. Many of us are more senior than the males.

This influences my view to a great extent I don't want to be told I have to wait in the massive line for the woman's loo when the males is empty. I also don't want it to be oh DS can't have that places on a training course it needs to go to a XX to meet some criteria.

Mixed sport is a possibility I would like to see how we can integrate it maybe make it say a football team with a minimum of X in one weight category, X in another.

Yes. I remember. You also don’t support female patient’s requesting female health care providers.

‘Single gender’? That is mixed sex. At least you are consistent and honest about not having empathy for women who need single sex provision.

As earlier, you write absolute risible nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that.

Put your stupid ideas into practice will end up with more women and girls raped, sexually assaulted, beaten, seriously life alteringly injured. Women and girls are not guinea pigs for you to experiment your fucking stupid ideas on.

Like I said, you write from a very privileged position

You have an odd idea about sport. The example you give with a football team, will mean men tackling women. Full on, full bloodied tackles, that will shatter women's legs. Weigh categories do not take account of bone density, muscle density, lung capacity etc etc.

You also know nothing about domestic violence and the needs of victims.

"Domestic violence happens from both sides having victims together is a potential for moving forward as victims"

Seriously? Rare to find a woman posting on a feminist board arguing that DV happens from both sides? Here you are very asleepscientist. Have a look at some real data:

https://www.femicidecensus.org/data-matters-every-woman-matters/

Domestic violence happens from both sides

And what percentage is female on male?

Your post is painful to read, it is the biggest pile of ignorant nonsense I have read on this website in a long time.

"Sleepy" is a very appropriate user name. Someone needs to wake the fuck up.

And going back to the subject of the thread. Like many woman, I struggle to find middle ground in the face of the outrageous appropriation of women's rights.
Frankly, until the assault on children & safeguarding has stopped, I'm in no mood to even look for compromise.

At least the sport wankery gives me a chance to post this again

Ok 1st noone is ever assigned a sex at birth in most cases it is observed in utro or at birth. In a very small number of babies where sex is not immediately obvious a genetic test is done to determine the sex.
2nd when your policy of mixed sex/single gender wards are used women not only lose all privacy, dignity and safety, but you are deliberately choosing to deny medical treatment to any trauma victim, rape survivor and religious people who are forbidden from being undressed around the opposite SEX.
3rd mixed sex dv groups don't help women they harm us as you would know if you'd ever been a victim of it.
4th you do realise that your friendship group is not the norm for most women
5th aa for mixed sex sports it will never work women would be harmed and killed by the larger stronger men who have a massive sporting advantage because of their SEX nothing can ever change that fact see image below.

A few mentions of transvestitism have been made. I think it's time we started using that word again to describe all males who claim to be women.

Maybe then it will wake society up to what is really going on.

I always held the opinion that how others chose to live their lives was their business, however, I have to say this changed for me when I saw the way young people were impacted by this ideology. I now believe that there is no middle ground as the trans community have as I view it no wish to compromise. I feel that the biology need to be acknowledged and adhered to. I just feel we need shouldn't have a grey areas.

That ship sailed long ago for me. There is no middle ground as far as Im concerned now.

I'm starting to think this too.

There is no middle ground for me now. There was but not anymore. Men cannot ever be women. The end.

More for the lurkers than anything because there's no getting through the privileged obliviousness of some posters -

Hospital accommodation is meant to be single sex. Hospital trusts receive fines for breaching policy. From around 2010 onwards, various Governments pledged to ensure that wards were single sex to ensure safety and dignity.

Of 1000 women surveyed, 97% want the option of single sex services -
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/about-us/why-women-girls/

In terms of sports, athletic teenage boys can beat women's World records - www.boysvswomen.com women's World records are currently being decimated by men and will never be overtaken by women. Men's physical advantages are obvious to anyone whose critical thinking skills haven't been utterly scuttled by the bizarre pseudo science peddled by gender ideology.

Mixed wards with bays dictated by gender not sex assigned at birth if possible. If not totally mixed - done by speciality

Quite apart from all the usual points, equipping mixed-sex bays (whether single gender or not) is more complicated than equipping single sex ones. Because bodies are different - male bodies need different sizes and length of catheter, different bed pans etc. So you'd need more storage space, and more time to pick the right kit on each occassion. On top of being ignorant, dangerous and ridiculous, it's inefficient.

high level sport is the easy one really, because decisions will be evidence-based and subject to widespread scrutiny. in the end 'the trans lobby' will be defeated utterly. we're part of the way there already. I'm a lot less confident at grass roots level.

in other spheres I really don't know. one day TRA-ism will become yesterday's right-on cause celebre, like the Nicaraguan Sandinistas or whatever, but that could take any amount of time.

I suppose ultimately there may come to be a bit of a two-speed thing, with some female spaces that are avowedly trans-inclusive and others that are not...

Oh dear God, aren't you embarrassed?

Let's talk about the results of a mixed ward in Ireland, in 2020.

extract

A judge has criticised a hospital for putting a 17-year-old girl with serious injuries in a mixed ward where she was sexually assaulted by a man (63) with a history of psychiatric problems.

Judge Seán Ó Donnabháin said serious questions had to be asked of Cork University Hospital management over the way they operated their ward system after hearing how Andrew O’Donovan sexually assaulted the teenager.

“This is a very, very troubling case where you have two patients presenting to Cork University Hospital and were placed side by side in a mixed ward and one sexually assaulted the other in the late night/early morning,” he said.

“You have to question the management of the ward system that allowed this young girl to be placed in close proximity to a man who was known to have a history of schizophrenic tendencies and a long psychiatric history.”

(continues)

Det Garda Keogh said the girl was unable to use the alert bell because of her injuries but nursing staff were alerted when they noticed O’Donovan’s heart started racing and his heart monitor reached elevated levels.

In her victim impact statement, the teenager said an accident had left her completely immobilised but she thought she was safe in hospital.

“The hospital placed me into a separate room but despite being separated from the defendant, I was very fearful and distressed, knowing that I was in the same building as him and therefore, I wanted to go home.”

She told how she was so fearful the following night that her father had to sleep in a chair beside her bed in the hospital and that since the incident she had developed a fear of older men and coming into contact with them on her own.

The assault affected her study for her Leaving Cert as she was suffered anxiety and flashbacks and she could not concentrate on school and she did not get the points she needed for her chosen course even though it was within her ability.

“This has changed my whole career path in life. During the Leaving Cert exam, the incident was headlined on the papers which led to my friends finding out about it, therefore increasing my anxiety,” she said.

From Irish Times

Presumably, if this teenager never goes on to become "very senior" in the workplace because of her experiences, that will simply mean that her opinions about mixed sex wards aren't worthy of consideration. Her trauma will be deemed irrelevant because it stopped her progressing to sleepy's lofty heights.

No one's sex is 'assigned at birth' and gender is a load of wank.

That's absolutely horrific Neighbourhood, but completely predictable.

I've been in that situation myself (badly injured in a mixed sex ward in a hospital) and it's such a vulnerable position to be in. I know I've written about it before on here, but until you are in that situation, the reality of not being able to get up and even drag yourself away is incrediby frightening.

There's no middle ground. I overheard a conversation between two young women today - job application form had so-called equality monitoring section "which had non-binary and genderqueer as options so I knew it was a good place" "yeah, that's a green flag for me". Word for word.

I could cry. Manipulated by this nonsense into thinking this is ok.

I think the middle ground for me is to treat as a religion. This worthy of respect but equally it MUST be accepted that not everyone believes in that religion.

Thus suitable places of 'worship' and services may be applicable (eg toilets for believers) but equally facilities must also be provided for none believers (single sex provision must be protected).

Harassment of believers/non believers is not acceptable. Anyone who breaks the principle (so someone using single sex provision for their own gender validation) is doing something unacceptable.

When referring to people, to their face, they should be treated with politeness but equally we should not be forced to tell lies.

Forced pronouns at work should be banned and be entirely voluntary (not initiated from above)

This is inline with principles of law and balancing of human rights.

As soon as you frame it as religion, and a belief, I think it's easier to unpick. Obviously lots of people won't like it, but ultimately since you can't actually change sex and the whole principle of 'being trans' is based on your sex (a transwoman is never female no matter how much they protest and the trans bit is the entire point).

This isn't erasing existence of anyone. It's saying its a belief that exists and people want to live their lives in this, but it's not compulsory and not everyone believes the same thing and it should not be forced on others without their consent.

Anyone who doesn't like that?

Tough fucking shit.