How do we find a middle ground?

[Namechange2468109]

How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

this

Middle ground?

Let's be proportionate. Men should deal with the toxic behaviour that is put forward as the reason that NBs and transwomen have difficulties with gender non-conforming behaviour and choices.

That's a relatively modest proposal compared to the seismic shift in women as a sex class with sex-based rights.

So the
This never happens thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread?page=33&reply=128827077

At 34 pages long is all bullshit?

Hear, hear. Great post @Datun . How dare people discount the safety and rights of all women, but especially the most vulnerable, for the purpose of validating the erroneous belief of a tiny percentage of men that they can be women (and thereby opening the floodgates to any man who fancies getting access to vulnerable women's spaces)?!

And it's not just discounting them, it's actually using them.

The presence of these women, the most vulnerable, are crucial.

At the risk of repeating myself, it's not the space that's desired, it's the women in the space. It's the women that makes it a woman's space. If you remove the women, the space becomes irrelevant, it's just four walls and a ceiling.

Wherever the women go next will become the focus and object of desirability.

But only, because they're in it.

The sick, the incarcerated, the raped, the old, the undressed.

Those women are who posters like @Echobelly and @sleepyscientist are happy for men to use.

So in answer to the OP, there is no middle ground, unless you accept that women should be used in the service of men.

I don’t understand this belief that there was some sort of golden age in which the ( very few) MTF slid under the radar, were indistinguishable from AFAB people and never pushed any boundaries.

I was young in the seventies, and knew three MTF people, two very famous and one who has since become ‘a prominent trans rights activist’ ( their words). None of them would have ‘ passed ‘ for AFAB at twenty paces , and they did not behave in the quiet self effacing way described ( imagined?).

Great distress was experienced by their families and romantic partners. Plus ça change, plus ça la même chose.

And here's the other thing Echo

How many women do you know, and I mean directly, not your workmate's cousin's friend, who have actually encountered a fully male presenting person using a female space because that person is claiming to be female?

Something like 80% of schools have trans identified children. In fact, 70 children in one school all came out during one term. You won't find many woman here who don't either have a child who says they are trans, or a peer of theirs who does.

How does that sit with your idea that it's only the few and far between?

Or do you actually realise, that the two cohorts are not the same?

In which case, why does the adult cohort encourage the proliferation of the child cohort?

Why does the very concept of a 'trans child' need to be reinforced, to the point where boys are allowed to use the toilets and changing rooms of the girls in primary schools right through to universities.

Have you ever asked yourself these questions??

It doesn't matter if it's 1%. The question that needs to be asked is what impact that 1% have.

That 1% is over represented in women's sport - why? Because an average mediocre man has such a significant advantage over all women. So that 1% is having a disproportionate effect on women. Why? Because it's not a like for like comparison. And therein lies the point about power dynamics and the disadvantages of women.

What impact does one male have in the showers of a prison? Do they affect just 1% or do they affect all the women there?

How many patients does one male member of staff treat?

@Echobelly

All three of the people I have described were using female facilities in the seventies, and they didn’t stop. And yes, it was quite unpleasant encountering them, even if you knew them personally, because male shape in female designated area = 👻

There is no middle way that doesn't involve me being a NPC in some male fantasy. Fuck that shit.

I think there is a middle way but I don’t think trans activists would not agree that it was meeting in the middle (or that we should).

Use pronouns people want but don’t force everyone to declare their pronouns.

Have some mixed sex, private and self contained changing rooms, hospital wards and bathrooms as well as disabled and single sex facilities.

Have trans women’s and trans man’s prisons. (I know it would require travelling)

Have trans categories in sports - based on testosterone levels and sex.

Provide good quality open minded counselling for people with gender dysphora and don’t allow any permanent medical or surgical transition until the age of 25 and a year of counselling at which point people should also be able to legally change gender reasonably easily too (but this not give them access to single sex spaces as described above)

Sex and gender both asked for on surveys or forms (with the option to say no gender identity) and information used as appropriate.

I am not sure and women’s only prizes - if there is a good argument for having them at all then I guess it depends on what it is for as to whether they should be split by sex or gender and what happens to non binary people.

It all sounds expensive…….

I'm never going to be looking for a middle way for trans activists in schools & children's healthcare. Not Gendered Intelligence, Global Butterflies, Stonewall, GIRES, Educate & Celebrate or any of the other numerous public funded groups determined that children must be told they could be born in the wrong body & dodgy medical treatment is a positive alternative.
Their message is dangerous to children, anti safeguarding, anti women and girls and age inappropriate.

No middle way - out of schools and away from children - the whole lot of them.

@JanesLittleGirl
💯 this

100%

Just reading the latest on the English Anglers effective win (I think there may need to be further clarity by international body).

I think with all the sports decisions and the prison guidance as examples, we will end up where male trans people will have no option at all but to fully accept that society will never believe that those male people are female. That any male who is saying they are a woman or girl has to accept they cannot change sex. They will always be a male who has modified their body to be their interpretation of a woman but will never be female.

How can it be anything else now that sports and to some degree prisons are clear that male are not female?

You don't.

Conceding ground allows a size 9 stilletoed foot to trample over women's rights.

The question is, is not how to find middle ground, it's why?

"They will always be a male who has modified their body to be their interpretation of a woman but will never be female. How can it be anything else now that sports and to some degree prisons are clear that male are not female?"

Indeed Helleofabore. These have been very significant shifts, made in the face of awful incidents that demonstrate precisely why TWANW. Now that some of our institutions are being dragged back to reality, we need to push further with schools and the NHS being massive concerns. The readiness of education & medical experts to be captured by conspiracy theorists claiming that sex change is possible & desirable for children must be a major priority for us all.

Well, quite. Why would we try to find a middle ground with those who, in response to women asking questions or (gasp!) daring to speak, threaten to rape and murder us?

There's going to be a hell of a lot of reverse ferreting from those violent, entitled men I mentioned and I foresee a lot of 'let's be sensible about this'.

Women tried. And they were threatened, deplatformed, sacked, pushed out of academic roles, deplatformed, cancelled, malicious legal action was taken (or threatened) against them etc etc etc.

So no. Fuck no.

I think there is something of an issue in NOT looking for a way to accomodate at this point.

Going back to my point about this being a religion (even cult), you can't just go cold turkey at this point. Why? Because there are a lot of vulnerable people caught in the midst of this. And there is the risk of further radicalisation which will only cause even more issues.

Its easy to forget the people who are effectively 'trapped' by the social structures of this. Pandoras box is ALREADY open, and we can't just shut it, as much as I'd like to.

I think, you have to see it through that lens - you can't just ban something cos you don't like it - life doesn't work like that. The Prohibition Era of the 1920s really proved that the moral drive that fuelled prohibition was full of good intent but all it did was create a huge amount of problems. The rule of unintended consequences applies.

So I think you have to clip the wings of the movement by doing stuff like reducing the unchallenged influence of the likes of Stonewall, whilst maintaining this concept of respect of religion. But as I say upthread it MUST NOT come at the expense of others rights - we MUST protect women's right and the rights of other groups such as lesbians and religious groups.

Thats why I think we have no choice but accept third spaces, but this must be aligned with the protections of other groups. And then keep on with the science. Those caught up in this, need to make the realisation themselves - they can't be forced to disbelieve anymore than we can be forced to believe.

And you have the issue of the sunk costs fallacy and the issue that there are individuals who are so emotionally invested in transition, they will seek it out very darker routes if this isn't done carefully.

I think of close family and friends who have transitioned or are in the process of doing so, when I consider this.

You have to build consensus and the reasoning that its pure sexism thats driving this in various ways - and that its causes active harms.

Deprogramming cults / extremism is all about encouraging debate and expose to other ideas - to support critical thinking. THIS must be part of whatever happens now - it MUST be a process. There can't be a hard full stop - cos you leave a bunch of people up shit creek too.

If we aren't open to the third spaces idea, and push for that AND the protection of womens spaces along side that we WILL see them taken and targetted anyway without consent. You are trying to reason with those in the Be Kind mindset on this who can see the logic of being nice to everyone (and don't see all the harms immediately) THATS where the consenus building is essential to do. You are NEVER going to be able to reason with the hardliners, but you might over time be able to demonstrate how crazy they are to the moderates and THATS where you ultimately 'win' this.

We should be one step ahead with this - we need detransitioning clinics and support for detransitioners to start being a proper thing - recognised channels for 'escape' if you will. One of the things that sucks people in with gender identity is social contagion and the community support people have for transition. Equally once stuck in that, they stay in it, because leaving the group means they are isolated and alone. If there is another community which doesn't almost 'villify' them (which is how they may perceive gender criticals), and offers emotional support for having gone through similar, then there is a fire escape that looks a lot more attractive.

And thats also why the stories, experiences and treatment of detransitioners are just so important. It needs to be 'normalised' to see detransition. Detransitioners being visible raises questions about recruitment and joining the group in the first place.

We need to be identifying the patterns BEFORE hand. WHY are people looking to transition? Whats driving it? Why is it having such a draw? If there were alternative ideas out there and alternative communities would things be different? If toxic masculinity and sexual trauma are part of the pattern, what are doing to reduce vulnerability before hand?

This ISN'T a simple answer. And its why I really stress the point about treating like a religion for a variety of reasons.

Great post @RedToothBrush - and yes to this:

We should be one step ahead with this - we need detransitioning clinics and support for detransitioners to start being a proper thing - recognised channels for 'escape' if you will. One of the things that sucks people in with gender identity is social contagion and the community support people have for transition. Equally once stuck in that, they stay in it, because leaving the group means they are isolated and alone. If there is another community which doesn't almost 'villify' them (which is how they may perceive gender criticals), and offers emotional support for having gone through similar, then there is a fire escape that looks a lot more attractive.

Third spaces have been suggested again and again and again. They are continually rejected as 'transphobic' and 'othering'.

If Stonewall et al had taken their considerable influence and funds and said 'we need to make sure that transpeople feel safe. Tackling male violence in society is an extreme long term goal and obviously we can't encroach on women's (legally established) single sex spaces, so we're going to campaign for an gender neutral toilet (in addition to single sex) in every new build public building/additional sporting categories/specialist rape crisis services etc etc etc', just about every woman on here and elsewhere would have supported that. They would have signed supportive petitions, fundraised, shared etc.

But they went for a land grab and silencing campaign while telling us (with threats) that we must ignore facts/evidence or be punished.

The 'extremists' though vocal aren't the main problem. It's the fact all this is institutionally embedded, in major organisations and politics. If they want to row back, then it's up to them to take the necessary steps. Not for women to concede a middle ground.

But its tough shit.

Thats the line. Thats all thats on offer. Because otherwise it causes harms.

Repeat ad ad nauseam.

The problem is worse because those who have GC views have been silenced and therefore the impression given is that this view is held by so few, I honestly believe that is not the case. I think that is the most frightening thing about this ideology.

The only middle ground that is possible comes when trans ideologues stop trying to pretend that people can literally change sex or somehow be born in the wrong body - and just accept what most transsexuals used to - which is that for whatever psychological/emotional reason some people feel more comfortable in themselves if they present in the stereotypical ways associated with the opposite sex.

That and third spaces and categories as the practical arrangement which accommodates everyone's needs for dignity, comfort and safety.