How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Thanks @EasternStandard!

And that's Numberwang!!

You should start a petition.

Heh, 86% of all nurses are women. Good luck with that.

Nothing ideological about there being two, and only two, sexes.

Yes women, and men, should have spaces and services that do not allow members of the opposite sex in them.

Now over to you - why shouldn't women and men have single sex only spaces?

Fuck! Did I just read this? I am only just now catching up. Do you godess think that people cannot tell between a male and a butch lesbian ? Are you for real? That a woman’s moustache is anything like a male moustache?

Or are you referring to the women who micro dose with testosterone? We have been told they do this to get ‘male cues’. is that what you mean?

No, sorry. ‘Butch lesbians’ without testosterone are weaponised in this debate. I have not once seen a female who without testosterone would be mistaken for a male. Being honest, have you ?

And we have had enough female transitioners who take testosterone who have stated very clearly that they understand that they have deliberately modified their bodies and understand the distress their presence might cause other female people. Many of them choose to find alternative solutions to their toilet / changing room needs. They even have an app to make sure they are prepared.

Maybe you haven’t been on MN FWR long enough to see these posts though. They also ask not to be weaponised or politicized in
this way.

“but what if said individual was a butch GC lesbian who had not shaved their upper lip, was wearing traditionally masculine clothing and had “scary” facial tattoos and other most modifications?”

My own mother had to shave regularly, many women do. And no… “scary” facial tatts are not an indication of being “male”. That is pretty culturally insensitive (or even fucking racist) to suggest that they are. But please do continue posting these scenarios.

Oh. And by the way if they were wearing ‘traditional male’ garb, I would be not really aware. I wear whatever clothes I like and have plenty that bigoted people (those adhering to stereotypes) would consider ‘male’ so it wouldn’t fucking occur to me that their clothes were not ‘female’.

Seriously, what the fuck! Do you honestly think your post was some kind of fucking ‘gotcha’! On a feminist fucking board? You have got to be joking !

There is a huge difference because a female presenting like a ‘male’ and male! You seem to be over reaching here to prove your point. You really seem to be believing feminists are adherents to stereotypes. WTAF!

gosh no!! sorry

No. It wasn’t your word. It does seem that you don’t understand what ‘male cues’ are.

They relate to the proportions of the face. The distance between the top of the lip and nose, the forehead, and many other very subtle differences that the human eye takes in and analyses. Not ‘square jaw’! Fuck, that would make me a male!

Plus the gait of a male which is not changable. The hands and feet size. The forearm proportions and the torso and the hips and many cues that do not change. Even with puberty blockers.

And then there is the voice.

They relate to the proportions of the face. The distance between the top of the lip and nose, the forehead, and many other very subtle differences

Enter ... the face calipers - ta da!

Oh! perhaps you haven't read that far! 😄

I know several men and women with what I would deem scary face tattoos.

(ex gang members with seriously intimidating tattoos all over their face, in the eyes, on the throat. That must’ve hurt).

I never have a problem telling the men and women apart. Even if they are right next to each other and even if they are not facing me. I mean, I don’t see their face tats then, but these people have ornamental skin all over the place.

Lovely they are, including also some butch lesbians who I correctly identify as women, despite not being a lesbian myself. Funny that.
I happily share toilets and lockerrooms with the women, but not with the men.

Even if the men come across as sweet and kind. Guess why I don’t share with them.

oh god, i wondered why this was still going

we've found ourselves in bUt wHatAboUt BuTcH leSbiAns clown world again where we pretend that a woman having short hair and wearing trousers makes everyone incapable of spotting that she's a woman

ace

Well the whole purpose of these rehashes which really dont need responding to, is that search engines are then padded out with these reactionary comments linked ot FWR, with bothering to distinguish between genuine contributions and relentless derails.

I did. Not finished yet though. It showed me how bereft of thought the poster was. Racist on different posts and homophobic.

All trying to convince people that male people should be allowed to access female toilets because apparently not only will Males with trans identities break the law when they are excluded using the EA exceptions which is highly transphobic, but apparently female people of all ages have much difficulty discerning male cues from butch lesbians. Especially with hormonally derived moustaches (like my mum), “scary” facial tatts (sorry friends) and wearing “masculine” clothes, I mean that is me!

What a fucking offensive few posts that was!! Seriously. WTAF?

it has been a really really long time since i last invoked Godwin's Law.

We have a winner here.

I feel like it’s been needed more lately but mn seems to have forgotten

It seemed to be someone who went to one of those awful 'reclaim the spirit of the Empire' schools that teaches that the best way of dealing with other people is to play divide-and-rule. It got very frustrated when we declined to go 'eek, lesbians!' or 'ugh, tattoos'.

those of us who were around in the early days of the internet might need to explain it (Fisking isn't a thing any more apparently, either 😁)

I mean, if we could pay someone to police every single bog in the world that would fair wipe out unemployment, so not the worst of thoughts.
They could have snazzy uniforms, though the face calipers … I’m just not sure.

If the bog police were the ones with the face-tattoos, then they would stand out immediately at least. Plus the uniform. They could also have a flag!
You’d just never have to guess, at all.

It is a fallible system, sadly. Corruption - can’t rule that out, the power going to their heads; only letting in people they like and so on.

If only there was some other kind of system, more based on norms and upheld by society at large. Not policing as such, just a general agreement on who goes where.
That could possibly sort it?

Who leaves their baby in a push chair or pram unattended in a public toilet?

What a ridiculous statement? You seem to not be doing all that well with any of your claims. They are all missing the point.

I am so looking forward to seeing the evidence this poster links us to that shows that male people at any stage of transition have lower propensity to commit sex crime than the rest of the male population. At this time not one of their arguments are either logical or based on anything but belief.

Maybe this poster will break the drought of evidence of lower sex crime rate!!! Maybe…

Or maybe they are here talking complete bollocks. Like they have no idea really of the lives of female people (and infants).

Interestingly enough, when both my children were still in prams I had to pull the pram into the doorway of the cubicle (meaning the door didn't close) to have a pee in a public loo. Luckily I didn't have to worry about men, butch lesbians or Lucy Letby trying to catch a look at me having a wee.

Well this thread started off as same old, same old. Very interesting and very informative then BAM!! I got hit right between the eyes with calipers and before I got my balance back BAM!! The Lucy Letby link knocked me down.

I'm convinced. Let the men in. All of them. We've been so cruel and mean 😯

I never thought that reading the name Lucy Letby would make me titter, but here we are.