Page 5 | The dreaded issue arose with my son…

HeadAgainstWall0923 · 2023-09-12T20:51:44+00:00

Today my 9 year old son told me that boys can change to girls, and girls can change to boys, and they can choose whether to be a boy or a girl whenever they want. When I asked him where he’d heard that he said he’d been told it at school. I feel so disheartened.

boromu222 · 13/09/2023 10:15

No, OP’s “dreaded” moment is that someone (she wasn’t sure who at the time of writing - friend or teacher or someone else) had just mentioned the notion of sex change.

Not mentioned, taught as fact. And as you know, nobody can change sex.

DodoPatrol · 13/09/2023 10:16

I know of only 3 trans people in my distant family/friendship/colleague circle. This is a tiny %, and is representative of the overall trans landscape

In our immediate circle of friends there are now five teenage/early twenties daughters who have transitioned -- as in, taking testosterone and in the cases of the older girls, having mastectomies. It really does cluster, both geographically (which suggests some social influence) and in neurodiverse kids (our friends are a geeky bunch). Medically unnecessary life-altering surgery and hormone treatment does bother me. Why wouldn't it?

Original poster

HeadAgainstWall0923 · 13/09/2023 10:16

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:03

Being mortified that someone mentioned the topic of transgender to your children is transphobic in my opinion.

From what OP said, it’s not like someone came to school and asked her child “do you want to stay a boy or become a girl, here’s how if you want to change, it’s totally possible”

No, OP’s “dreaded” moment is that someone (she wasn’t sure who at the time of writing - friend or teacher or someone else) had just mentioned the notion of sex change.

To my earlier point, it is legal to change your gender. So to be alarmed by the sheer mention of this, is transphobic.

My “dreaded moment” was when I was faced with my child believing that it is perfectly possible to change sex and switch from being a boy to a girl, and vice versa, at the person’s whim.

I know transgender people exist but that doesn’t mean I want my child to hear, and believe what is the scientific impossibility of a person being able to change their sex.

It is not transphobic to believe in biology.

OP posts:

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:17

If you read OP’s original post, there is no mention of “sex”. The concept her son brought up was that boys can choose to be girl and vice versa.

I doubt anyone said “you can change your sex” to OP’s son. At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender. So clearly the discussion was around the fact that some men choose to live as women and vice versa, but overly simplified based on their age.

My point is that people DO choose to live as a different gender, and they can legally identify as the new gender. So it should not be a “dreaded” topic. If anything, it’s a chance to discuss the topic further, and ensure a full, age appropriate, understanding.

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:18

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:04

I don't get the agonising, tell him that some people think they would be happier living as the other sex, so they wear different clothes and haircuts etc. But that adults disagree about whether they should be seen as entirely that different sex so allowed to go into changing rooms, recorded as that sex on passport etc.

It's a good opportunity to talk about law and parliament and politics too.

Some people are trans (they live that way, see themselves that way etc) - that's an absolute fact and your child will encounter them. You might not believe that they can change biological sex, you can discuss that too and say people have different opinions about it and it's a tricky subject. Reiterating that everyone should always be treated with respect and people have different views.

I think it's a bit like how I don't believe in Islam, but I know Muslims exist, my children mix with them and I want my child to show them respect. As to how the law should approach things like sharia law, honour killings, FGM etc - that's something political that can be discussed with acknowledgment of different viewpoints.

Do you have children yourself?

You are suggesting discussions which are not age appropriate, or accessible, for a 10 year old. also, it is not as simple as you suggest. To discuss the concept of 'changing gender' - you'd have to explain what 'gender' is in the first place ( thus reinforcing gender stereotypes) and what sex is.

You'd also have to explain that boys and girls can like and enjoy all sorts of things and that doesn't mean they've changed gender or sex, either.

All just so unnecessary.........

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:19

If you read the thread, this was a conversation between friends at school. Nothing was “taught”.

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:20

'Trans' is not an absolute fact at all. 'Identifying as trans' is a device that some people use to frame their own feelings about themselves. That is the fact. 'Trans' is a framing device. Try explaining that to a child.

boromu222 · 13/09/2023 10:21

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:17

If you read OP’s original post, there is no mention of “sex”. The concept her son brought up was that boys can choose to be girl and vice versa.

I doubt anyone said “you can change your sex” to OP’s son. At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender. So clearly the discussion was around the fact that some men choose to live as women and vice versa, but overly simplified based on their age.

My point is that people DO choose to live as a different gender, and they can legally identify as the new gender. So it should not be a “dreaded” topic. If anything, it’s a chance to discuss the topic further, and ensure a full, age appropriate, understanding.

Boys and girls IS referring to sex. He was told that boys can CHANGE to girls.

They cannot. They can modify their clothes, pronouns and external attributes, but they cannot change into girls, and again, you know that.

At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender.

Lol. Thats not an age thing. My 7 year old understands the difference, a huge number of adults appear to not understand. Although many are pretending not to understand so that they can pretend that boys can become girls....

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:21

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:19

If you read the thread, this was a conversation between friends at school. Nothing was “taught”.

Yes, i've read the tread. I've had children, now a granddaughter, and i've been a teacher - as well as a counsellor. It is important how we speak with children about such things. We need to be honest and age appropriate. No pushing of ideologies.

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:22

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:13

I think you misunderstand. The mother in question has a child who has had it suggested that boys can become girls and vice versa. This is not true. It is an untruth and a confusion for the child.

Children are not capable of adult thought processes - and even if an adult manages to hold to such levels of cognitive dissonance in pursuit of conformity with an ideology ( a constructed idea) - it is not desirable to expect a child also to do so.

This would be to encourage them to be utruthful and not to trust their own instincts. It also confusing when an adult who is supposed to be responsibile repeats and reinforces this untruth.

This is what the mother in question now has to deal with. How to talk in an age appropriate way with a child that has been given false information - which responsible adults may also be enforcing or encouraging too.

Show quote history

You're underestimating your child. My 6yo could understand this:

In the past people were expected to stay as girls and boys and people thought girls and boys were capable of different things
Now we think girls and boys can do the same - women can do jobs and men can care for children etc
Some people say they feel they would be comfortable living as a man even if they were born as a woman and it doesn't matter what their body looks like, it's about how they feel inside
Other people think if you were born a boy or girl, that is something you can't change even if you want to change your name or how you dress etc
Grown ups disagree about this and some people want to change the rules about it, but others don't
When grown ups disagree, they both explain what they think and see if they can persuade each other

You don't need to go on about truth and untruth.

boromu222 · 13/09/2023 10:23

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:22

You're underestimating your child. My 6yo could understand this:

In the past people were expected to stay as girls and boys and people thought girls and boys were capable of different things
Now we think girls and boys can do the same - women can do jobs and men can care for children etc
Some people say they feel they would be comfortable living as a man even if they were born as a woman and it doesn't matter what their body looks like, it's about how they feel inside
Other people think if you were born a boy or girl, that is something you can't change even if you want to change your name or how you dress etc
Grown ups disagree about this and some people want to change the rules about it, but others don't
When grown ups disagree, they both explain what they think and see if they can persuade each other

You don't need to go on about truth and untruth.

Show quote history

If thats what youve told your 6 year old you have lied to them and should do better.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2023 10:24

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:03

Being mortified that someone mentioned the topic of transgender to your children is transphobic in my opinion.

From what OP said, it’s not like someone came to school and asked her child “do you want to stay a boy or become a girl, here’s how if you want to change, it’s totally possible”

No, OP’s “dreaded” moment is that someone (she wasn’t sure who at the time of writing - friend or teacher or someone else) had just mentioned the notion of sex change.

To my earlier point, it is legal to change your gender. So to be alarmed by the sheer mention of this, is transphobic.

Perhaps you didn't read the OP's posts?

Firstly, can you please explain to us all who obviously don't 'get it', how a person can change sex except as a legal fiction? Why should any person celebrate a child coming home and telling their mother that a male can have their testes removed and change sex to become a female?

Do you think it is a good thing to lie to children? Do you think it is a good thing to teach falsehoods such as this to children?

There is a huge difference between teaching a scientifically provable fact and teaching a belief as fact without prefacing it with 'this is a belief that some people believe but it is not provable with science'.

Please clarify whether you believe children should be taught that they can 'change sex' when this is scientifically untrue and what has been taught has not been clearly stated as 'this is a legal change only'?

Original poster

HeadAgainstWall0923 · 13/09/2023 10:24

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:17

If you read OP’s original post, there is no mention of “sex”. The concept her son brought up was that boys can choose to be girl and vice versa.

I doubt anyone said “you can change your sex” to OP’s son. At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender. So clearly the discussion was around the fact that some men choose to live as women and vice versa, but overly simplified based on their age.

My point is that people DO choose to live as a different gender, and they can legally identify as the new gender. So it should not be a “dreaded” topic. If anything, it’s a chance to discuss the topic further, and ensure a full, age appropriate, understanding.

As it clearly states in my opening post
my son said that boys can “change” to be a girl (and vice versa). He did not use the word “choose”. When he spoke about the removal of his testicles and how it would mean he would then be a girl it shows he was referring to anatomical changes and a person purposefully altering their body to change to the opposite sex. This shows his understanding of “changing your sex” goes way beyond gender and social constructs.

He was not taking about “choosing” to be a girl just because a boy might like playing with dolls or wearing pink etc.

OP posts:

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:24

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:20

'Trans' is not an absolute fact at all. 'Identifying as trans' is a device that some people use to frame their own feelings about themselves. That is the fact. 'Trans' is a framing device. Try explaining that to a child.

It is a fact that there are people out there who call themselves trans, form trans communities, tick trans boxes on forms etc

You might disagree with them but they exist

Eg you might be a Christian who believes marriage is truly only between a man and a woman in the eyes of God. But gay marriage exists. You could tell your children that it was something that existed even if you disagreed with the fundamental concept

HipTightOnions · 13/09/2023 10:27

At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender.

So you think it is possible to change from boy(gender) to girl(gender)?

What's the difference? What changes?

Please explain. I should be able to understand because I'm not 7.

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:27

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:06

How do you think we did it? How would you approach it, if you were trying to foster a basic understanding of the concept?

We mentioned that some people, as they get older, realise that they aren’t happy being a boy/girl, and they choose to change. But that most people are happy, and they stay a boy/girl.

That's not even true, though.

Introducing the concept that it is posssible to change something you actually cannot change is harmful. Also, it implies to children that they need not develop emotional and psychological resillience. Who goes through life "happy" all of the time, or without struggle? Nobody.

Not identifying as trans doesn't mean you accept all of the guff about gender and are happy with stereotypes. Suggesting in any way to a child that pretending to be the opposite sex might be a good coping strategy for life's struggles is pure negligence. You are settiing them up for a mighty big fall.

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:28

boromu222 · 13/09/2023 10:23

If thats what youve told your 6 year old you have lied to them and should do better.

Show quote history

Which bit is a lie?

Helleofabore · 13/09/2023 10:29

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:22

You're underestimating your child. My 6yo could understand this:

In the past people were expected to stay as girls and boys and people thought girls and boys were capable of different things
Now we think girls and boys can do the same - women can do jobs and men can care for children etc
Some people say they feel they would be comfortable living as a man even if they were born as a woman and it doesn't matter what their body looks like, it's about how they feel inside
Other people think if you were born a boy or girl, that is something you can't change even if you want to change your name or how you dress etc
Grown ups disagree about this and some people want to change the rules about it, but others don't
When grown ups disagree, they both explain what they think and see if they can persuade each other

You don't need to go on about truth and untruth.

Show quote history

Can you then explain to your six year old what 'living as a man' and 'how it feels inside' means?

Because if you can explain this clearly to your six year old, could you explain it to me so that it doesn't negate the 'people are completely free to live without sexist stereotypes' and 'it doesn't matter what their body looks like'?

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:30

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:24

It is a fact that there are people out there who call themselves trans, form trans communities, tick trans boxes on forms etc

You might disagree with them but they exist

Eg you might be a Christian who believes marriage is truly only between a man and a woman in the eyes of God. But gay marriage exists. You could tell your children that it was something that existed even if you disagreed with the fundamental concept

Show quote history

But you shouldn't expect or teach the child they have to go along with other people's private beliefs. You can acceot they have them - but they are personal and private to them. Children should not be expected to have to use the articles of faith ( pronouns etc) of someone else's religion.

boromu222 · 13/09/2023 10:30

All of it. You've portrayed objective fact as subjective opinion and vice versa. It's confused nonsense.

Other people think if you were born a boy or girl, that is something you can't change even if you want to change your name or how you dress etc ??

We don't think that, we know that. It's scientific fact, not an opinion, you cannot change your sex. If you are born male you will always be male, no matter what you do.

Don't lie to your child.

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:33

We live in a secular, liberal society. we accept that people come from different cultures but we also expect them to recognise the common culture and the rules and laws of it.

Truth exists. Sex is real. You cannot change sex. These are the common truths of our society. They have significance.

What individuals believe or do in private is their business - and it is up to those who are nearest and dearest to negotiate the nature and rules of the relationship - but these rules cannot be imposed on everyone else.

MargotBamborough · 13/09/2023 10:37

lilyblue5 · 13/09/2023 09:16

@zeibesaffron 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I’ve read a few books by trans adults (Elliot Page being the latest) and it seems a lot of them knew when they were very young that they were different in some way.

It’s worth a chat with the school but I’m sure this topic would’ve been covered in an age appropriate way. (Or did your child just overhear something in the playground?)

I personally have no issue with them teaching from a younger age. It can only help children’s understand that we aren’t all exactly the same. They are going to meet a lot of people in their lifetime, especially at secondary and universities where young adults really get a change to experiment and find themselves.

Perhaps all this will eventually lead to lower suicide rates amongst the trans community?

Elliot Page has been very open about having been sexually abused as a minor. It's not very difficult to imagine why such an experience might make you want to reject your female body and identity.

I would also be careful what you say about trans people and suicide. The threat of suicide is one which is constantly evoked by trans activists to give the impression that if people with gender dysphoria aren't able to transition they are much more likely to commit suicide. The evidence for this is unreliable at best.

fearfuloffluff · 13/09/2023 10:37

RebelliousCow · 13/09/2023 10:18

Do you have children yourself?

You are suggesting discussions which are not age appropriate, or accessible, for a 10 year old. also, it is not as simple as you suggest. To discuss the concept of 'changing gender' - you'd have to explain what 'gender' is in the first place ( thus reinforcing gender stereotypes) and what sex is.

You'd also have to explain that boys and girls can like and enjoy all sorts of things and that doesn't mean they've changed gender or sex, either.

All just so unnecessary.........

Show quote history

I've got two children. I think you underestimate children's intelligence tbh. You can discuss things with them in open ended ways and acknowledging where people disagree or don't have all the answers.

You can also explain a concept then say you don't believe in it, we were talking about child chimney sweeps the other day - doesn't mean I agree with it! You can easily say people used to think girls could only do xyz but now attitudes have changed.

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:38

Nothing has been said by the school to her children, it came from friends.

This shouldn’t be a “dreaded” topic. It’s an opportunity to share more information and make sure the child has the right understanding.

Children are constantly exposed to different ideas, people etc. It’s our role as parents to make sure our children have the right understanding.

OP, you are entirely right in that you cannot change biological sex. That means that women who transition to trans men won’t produce sperm. Naturally, trans women don’t have wombs. etc.

What is possible, is that people choose to live as a different gender and they can legally change their gender. So they’d look like a woman (if they were born a man) and legally speaking they’d be a woman. However, very few people feel so sad/uncomfortable the way they are so this is very rare. Changing is very difficult, takes time and people have to be sure before they change.

This is the type of thing you can explain to your son.

OldCrone · 13/09/2023 10:41

Justtochat · 13/09/2023 10:17

If you read OP’s original post, there is no mention of “sex”. The concept her son brought up was that boys can choose to be girl and vice versa.

I doubt anyone said “you can change your sex” to OP’s son. At their age they lack the understanding of the difference between sex and gender. So clearly the discussion was around the fact that some men choose to live as women and vice versa, but overly simplified based on their age.

My point is that people DO choose to live as a different gender, and they can legally identify as the new gender. So it should not be a “dreaded” topic. If anything, it’s a chance to discuss the topic further, and ensure a full, age appropriate, understanding.

The concept her son brought up was that boys can choose to be girl and vice versa.

I doubt anyone said “you can change your sex” to OP’s son.

If a boy can 'choose to be a girl' that implies that he can change sex. Boys are male, girls are female.

some men choose to live as women and vice versa

Can you explain how a man 'lives as a woman'? What is the difference between a man who lives as a woman and a man who lives as a man?

My point is that people DO choose to live as a different gender, and they can legally identify as the new gender.

What do you mean by 'live as a different gender'? As far as I am aware I don't live as any gender. The concept doesn't make sense to me. Can you explain?

As for being legally recognised as the opposite sex (which is what I think you mean by 'legally identify as the new gender'), some of us think that this should not be possible. It is a political issue which can and should be discussed.

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What are your thoughts on Repeal the GRA? | Mumsnet

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