The dreaded issue arose with my son…

[HeadAgainstWall0923]

Today my 9 year old son told me that boys can change to girls, and girls can change to boys, and they can choose whether to be a boy or a girl whenever they want.

When I asked him where he’d heard that he said he’d been told it at school.

I feel so disheartened.

@SayingwhatIreallythink I don’t think its worrying -I knew no transgender people at that time (I am 49) possibly because people were not able to talk about it! I knew a number of mum’s friends who were in same sex relationships but this was late70’s and early 80’s but that was just not talked about.

I just believe that as people can be more open and be who they want to be (thank goodness) - we shouldn’t be frightened of this and if a child asks we respond in a way that’s appropriate. God only knows I have got it wrong when the kids have asked something left field - but I’d rather have the conversation and often I have learnt too! I remember when one of mine came home and said they had been discussing the term LGBTQIA plus at school and I learnt what the term intersex meant! I just don’t see it as a drama!

Both my kids have both grown up to be supportive, kind and inclusive young people. Of which I am very proud.

I’d definitely make an appointment to go in and chat to the school about what they teach them in PSHE/RSE about gender stuff. Look at the material and lesson plans.

My DD is secondary school now but I discussed this in her primary school and at secondary school, and pushed back on some of the content. She is in the ‘infamous’ school now which went Twitter viral last term with ‘cat gender’ pupil! My DD knows it’s all a load of bollocks. I’m always wearing my woman adult human female T-shirts. Just be very open and honest with your son. Biological and scientific facts - no hate - but you don’t have to agree with people’s delusions.

Yep. No so glamorous-sounding but the truth.

The drama of it is like as many others have said, is because our young children are being told something that is factually incorrect, and actually quite damaging, and parents are then having to walk the fine line of educating their children on the truth whilst also not being dismissive of other people’s beliefs or feelings.

And as others have said, it is such a big issue to talk about and trying to navigate it with a 9 year old can be challenging I imagine. I guess I will find out later!

I have told my son we will sit down this evening and talk about it properly and I will be using some of the example in this thread.

Sadly I can’t use the Santa analogy though as my son still believes in Santa 😂

Thankfully he’s said it’s not the teacher who told him, but he overheard a conversation some older children were having.

I don’t know if that makes it better or worse though as it’s easy to challenge one teacher but impossible to address the issues when children are talking about it in the playgroup or together and offering their (poor) understanding of the matter.

The problem with some of what you suggest is that you have to be honest with the child that boys cannot really change into girls. If you are telling them to " be kind" by pretending or going along with the pronouns and so on, is that you are setting up dissonance in your child, and expecting thenm to hold two contradictory beliefe together at the same time. A child is not equipped to do this - without negative consequence for their own grasp of reality, and for their own rights to truth and honesty.

I think you need to ask where the older children are getting this from. Is it from lessons? If so,it's still worrying.

I'd still seek an appointment with the head. Children talk about all sorts of stuff that they've heard adults talking about, or that they've picked up ofTV or the internet. I'd want to be clear what the school's approach is.

Regarding your children being told what " intersex" means, i suspect they have been ill informed if it is part of the queering programme they have been exposed to.

Intersex does not mean neither one sex or the other, or both sexes at the same time. Intersex is a disorder of sexual development - but in the vast majority of cases the sex of the child is still clear and functional.

I have had many, many conversations with my DH over this which I have allowed to be overheard by my children since they were about 8. I am careful to always be respectful and concerned about people with gender dysphoria. That way they can pick up what they need as and when they are ready.

Directly to them I’ve said that some people believe you can change sex or become a unicorn, some people believe in Jesus and some people believe their vaccine causes 5G signals to make them eat vegan and vote for chemtrails. Be respectful to everyone but always question the narrative.

I’ve also said repeatedly that they can cut or grow their hair any which way they want, wear whatever clothes they like, play with whatever toys they like and listen to whatever music they like (as long as I amn’t trapped in a car with it too) And none of that has any bearing on their sex.

Waves at Willy!

Sadly, IW has turned comments off so I cannot respond directly.

Unlike India I don’t need long hair to help me look female 🙀

Trans ideology tells our boys to cut their balls off to become girls but my theatrical hair cut is ‘toxic manipulation’?

Hair regrows but genitals don’t, Sooz.

Zeibesaffron said:
'I remember when one of mine came home and said they had been discussing the term LGBTQIA plus at school and I learnt what the term intersex meant! I just don’t see it as a drama!'

I think this is a good example of the issue with this ideology using the term 'intersex' to try to obfuscate the binary of the sexes.

I think that a lot of people understand that some of the older terms for people with specific disabilities are in fact very insulting and shouldn't be used now. A good example would be older words used for people with Down's Syndrome or for people with Cerebal Palsey.

This movement (gender ideology) has now taken people with DSD's and resurrected the older term 'intersex' which can be incredibly insulting.

So 'no drama' just regression in the public's understanding about a group of people which has been done to help an ideological position.

I really feel you OP and others with young children now. Mine were already teenagers when schools started pushing this new religion/ideology so it was much easier to have the conversations, it is complicated. As a PP said on the first page it is in a small way comparable with continuing to believe in Catholic Christianity after Henry the 8th declared the Church of England was the new way. Obviously we don’t fear being tortured and executed but with my teenagers the instinctively understood that they must not let anyone know what they believe about sex and gender because of the social, academic and employment consequences. The same as their dad and I do at work. We can’t afford to lose our jobs. We all tread a fine line of staying true to our own beliefs/opinions by not participating in the rituals of the new religion whilst also trying to keep quiet about those beliefs.

I think this is much easier than a child from an atheist family at a C of E primary because if a child or parent says I don’t believe in Christianity it wouldn’t be considered much of an issue really, as a society we pretty comfortable about the old religions all rubbing along with each other and those who don’t have a religion at all. Christians, Hindus etc don’t think that people who don’t share their beliefs are snuffing out their very existence by that lack of belief.

My atheist eldest went to a Catholic primary - his headteacher cast him as Herod Antipas in the school’s Easter play!

There are many people in our society that are able to live in a way that they choose so just because you may not agree does not mean to say that a 9 year old cannot hear about it in an age appropriate way. I outlined my daughters friends as one has had feelings of wanting to be transgender since 11/12 I am highlighting that the 9yo will probably come across a wide range of you g people at clubs or secondary school very soon and an open conversation is best. I just don’t see why this is such a big deal!!

I still don't think you can compare seventeen year olds with nine year olds. I don't think saying they are going to be at secondary school very soon so let's crack on is a good argument.

Open conversation is great. But not if people are telling them things that aren't true such as if a boy has no penis he is a girl or that they are trying to close down these open conversations with dismissive phrases such as 'I don't see why this is a big deal'.

What is his understanding of cells and DNA? I'd explained to my son about XX and XY chromosomes from when he was quite young, so he understands that they can't change at all. I've talked to him about all this over the years. He's 10 now and fully understands that sex can't change, he has a sanitised understanding of what the surgeries entail and how taking opposite sex hormones work. He also knows there are only 2 sexes, though some people have been born with different chromosomes which can blur things a bit but they are still male or female.

And he knows that there are physical differences between men and women. So was genuinely outraged when he learned about trans women in women's sports as he instantly understood it to be cheating.

Unfortunately he also, I hope, knows that he shouldn't talk about this with other people until he is older. I've explained that it's a subject that upsets a lot of people and children shouldn't have to be involved in. That if anyone talks to him about it, just try and avoid it and talk it through with me later. Thankfully, I really don't see it happening in his primary school as the principal just seems smart and down to earth. But secondary will be a different matter.

Sorry I wrote that while doing something else. 🙄🤣

I mean to say the conversation with a 9 year old is much harder not easier than being an atheist at a C of E primary.

When mine were at primary 5 years ago gender identity would not have come up at all. We did home education for a few years too and it never came up there either, there were plenty of boys wearing princess dresses or having long hair but it never occurred to anyone then that that made them girls. I hear that gender identity ideology has become quite prevalent in home education groups now as well as in schools.

There are many people in our society that are able to live in a way that they choose so just because you may not agree does not mean to say that a 9 year old cannot hear about it in an age appropriate way.

The appropriate is the key part here.

'People can dress any way they like within the bounds of appropriacy and respect for the situation/others' (has to be added because bloody hell have we seen open mindedness pushed to the stupid point and beyond by exhibitionists, butt monkey being one of the well known examples. Currently presenting man teacher with boobs to the knees and clearly visible nipples another.) 'There is no right way to be a boy or a girl, a boy can dress any way he wants and wear and do whatever he likes, and still be a boy, and it's good to be yourself.'

Fine. Great. Let's wreck those stereotypes. Everyone's body is perfect as it is, and they are perfect as they are.

'Some people have a condition where they are distressed and unable to accept the sex of the body they have, and prefer to dress and have a name or even grown ups change their bodies to look more like the sex they want to be, and it's kind not to point out that this isn't a real change.'

Also fine. With clear limits on how far my child is expected to be kind, and that it is not ok to make other people uncomfortable or remove their privacy or expect other people to give up their normal boundaries rather than jar this preference. There are times and places in which stating reality is necessary if someone is forcing you into it, and it is not wrong to do so.

'Everyone can pick their sex, you can change sex, you can be the opposite sex if you want to, it's all harmless and can be undone at any time including surgery and drugs, sex is a spectrum, homosexuality means you should go by what the person tells you and not what your eyes and body and sexual desire tells you, don't call yourself a girl, it's bad and only nasty people do that, some kinds of people are more important than others and if you're an important kind of person you get to tell other people what language to use and how to treat you and if you're not that important kind of person your job is to shut up and look after the more important people, your parents are old and wrong and stupid and you should break contact with them and go only with online adults who will love and support you much better than the people who raised you ever could, anyone who says no to you says that their reality matters too is a nazi' -

absolutely bloody not fine, and to pretend this isn't part and parcel of it, and what kids are taking away, is naive now to the point of being ridiculous. Adult discomfort with cognitive dissonance is not an excuse to take advantage of children's trust and lack of experience of the world, and to enable a political movement with a lot of unaddressed problems to control 'messaging'.

😂

Why do all these oddbods care so much about your hair, SpiderMaam?

Are there not better hobbies than spending your time seething in capital letters over imagining some woman, somewhere, cutting her own hair?

Because if all us real women cut our hair short, making woman-costumes for men will become much harder? 😃

My hair actually looks fab btw, IW & Chums - obvs I had it professionally tidied up after 🙄

Cutting off 4-5 years of length (and associated bleached highlights) has made it really thick and healthy, like young Lady Di!

(or George Michael in the same era 😂)

He’s very clued up on the anatomical differences between the sexes and reproduction and hormones etc but I’ve never gone into it as deeply as DNA and chromosomes but I guess that’s the next step.

I’m just trying to find a way to explain such complicated information at a level a 9 year old will understand. If I make it too technical he’s just going to switch off.