Ways to lessen the risk of rape

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

The idea that any form of precautionary behaviour from women is akin to 'victim blaming' seems like madness to me. A very sensible column from K Stock.

'Someone needs to tell young women what sort of world they live in and how best to defend themselves accordingly — imperfect certainly, but still better than nothing. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t always the same thing as telling women that if they don’t listen to sensible advice, they have no right to complain about whatever happens next.'

Another detail that I'd never considered is how insulting it is to suggest that it's mothers' responsibility to 'teach sons not to rape'.

Agree. That’s why I am wondering where the men are on this thread and writing similar articles.

This. Why does it fall to us to teach them not to rape. Why are men not accountable for their own behaviour. Why can we not walk around safely without people likening our body’s to handbags waiting to be snatched.

I actually think the judicial system and the lack of convictions for rapes, is in fact the thing that keeps rapists raping.

Other than tell DD1 to trust her instincts - avoid being "nice" something DD2 was told by her then school she had to be even with strangers making her uncomfortable - and use common sense.

I'd never trust a man to walk me home and in the days when I caught taxis, I always registered a call at the centre rather than flagging one down.

That's actually a sensible tip - I used to have phone out and text someone I was meeting or expecting me back or say I was.

As a uni student I found it safer in mixed groups when I was getting more drunk than ideal - I was often approached by men saying the knew me and female friends always seemed to believe them than me - it was men in groups who were skeptical and made sure I stayed close by - I don't know if that was just groups I friendly with though.

Or just giving men a place they no is not policed https://www.crimrxiv.com/pub/n8lhb37h/release/1

This is what anarchists want, and in terms of criminality it is pretty obvious why.

A lot of rape and violence against women and girls comes from a place in which boys and men are allowed to believe that their wants, needs and desires are somehow more valid or important than those of anyone else. At the same time, girls are taught the opposite.

It's a whole lot more complex and nuance and detailed, and not for this thread, but I think this is what it comes down to.

That's actually a sensible tip - I used to have phone out and text someone I was meeting or expecting me back or say I was.

Yes, I used to call from the back of the taxi to say I was on my way ... sometimes I was faking the call.

i gently diasgree. I think what this thread shows is that
rapists will rape. That is a given

But women need to feel a bit in control and that can mean by what they wear, where they go and how much they drink.

My DDs and their friends really have each other's backs in terms of not letting them make dangerous decisions when they're on a night out.

I thought the article was a bit crap to be honest. Shallow. It's based on a fantasy version of rape - that if women do the right things we wont get raped. And it was totally individualist, there was nothing there about social protection, about how women protect each other. She doesn't grapple with the most basic contradiction to her position, that just being out there socialising rather than stuck at home helps to make women safer.

It's not her area of expertise and it shows.

Articles like this imply that women aren't already doing everything they possibly can do to not be raped. Everything!

Short of not existing women can do no more.

It's up to men to take responsibility for their actions as a whole. I don't subscribe to the "not all men" message.

ALL men benefit from violent men's actions.

ALL men benefit from women's fear of speaking up or challenging the status quo.

ALL men are responsible for the violence their sex allows to perpetrate whether physically, verbally or through not challenging "banter", "boys will be boys" etc.

There are two separate issues. Taking safety measures is something we do throughout out lives eg wearing seat belts. We should be advising our kids not to hitchhike, not to go home with strangers, not to get so plastered that you don't have control of your actions, make sure friends look out for each other etc. This is just basic safety advice, not victim blaming. Clearly people still get attacked / drown/ crash their cars etc despite safety advice, but it helps.

As pointed out, most rapes / sexual assaults are from people known to the victim and are absolutely nothing to do with what the victim is wearing, how drunk they are etc. The solution to this is very complex, but is all about modifying the behaviour of men and attitudes held in our society.

When I hear a young woman on the news saying "I should have the right to walk home alone at 3am and not be at risk of being attacked" I worry that the safety message is being lost for fear of victim blaming. You wouldn't say "I should have the right to swim in cayman infested water and not being bitten". The world will never be completely safe, so safety measures will always be required.

I was raped because he wanted to rape me. Pure and simple. It happened in broad daylight, I trusted him as we had been together a while. I didn't want sex. He did, he raped me.

It took a long time to recover. It was 30 years ago, I had no support, told no one and felt shame, lonely and afraid.

Whilst I have no idea how to prevent rape, I do believe we should do more to support, empower and comfort these that have been raped. Without going to into why it happened. How to avoid being raped etc.

When I hear a young woman on the news saying "I should have the right to walk home alone at 3am and not be at risk of being attacked" I worry that the safety message is being lost for fear of victim blaming. You wouldn't say "I should have the right to swim in cayman infested water and not being bitten". The world will never be completely safe, so safety measures will always be required.

the comparison shouldn’t be about walking home at 3am and swimming in infested waters, but about a woman walking home at 3am and a man walking home at 3am.

Is a misguided perception of control more or less damaging when it is shown to be false? Many posters have highlighted this already. What happens when you do everything "right", you dress conservatively, you restrict your freedoms, and you don't drink alcohol to excess and yet you still face sexual violence?

Teach people (especially boys) from a very early age that just because they can take something because they are bigger or stronger doesn't make it right to take it.

Teach people (especially boys) from a very early age that might does not equal right. Being stronger, bigger than someone does not make you better than them. It does not make you entitled to the things they have or to touch them in any way.

It's about building respect and an understanding of boundaries. Not snatching toys, not grabbing other people. It starts in small things.

I think this is where these discussions re "safety" fall flat. In the same way that we tell people to lock their houses, but we don't try to pretend that means they are 100% safe. We also don't then blame them if they get robbed anyway.

Too often the safety messages women hear seem to be "well, if you do this, you'll never be harmed and if you are, it's your fault". The fact that there are some situations where there are some things a woman can do to protect herself shouldn't be equated to doing this things protects her all the time and it's therefore her fault if things don't go right.

@AlecTrevelyan006 but men are also attacked walking home alone at 3am. It isn't that safe for anyone.

Do you really think @ISpyNoPlumPie that no measures a woman can take could ever prevent her from being raped? If you take this view then I agree all the advice feels pointless and blamey. My feeling is that a proportion of rapes are preventable by making them more difficult to commit or the perpetrator more likely to be caught. It is clear that some men will rape if they can but I think there are things that might deter them. As I said above, we have to arm ourselves as best we can against the reality we face. For me that means restricting my life in a way a man wouldn’t have to.

I completely agree. And it needs to happen YOUNG. I'm already exhausted and tired of DD coming home and telling me that a boy did x or y and that she can't push back because she's not allowed to shout or whatever.

Similarly, we have a nephew who is very challenging. He consistently and regularly hurt her but we were always just told "it was an accident, he didn't mean it, it's just rough housing." Until one day we realised we were sending DD the wrong message so next time it happened, we got up and left. We were accused of being OTT and precious etc... but here's an interesting little factoid.... he hasn't hurt DD since!

Wearing seatbelts is a legal requirement and there is a huge amount of evidence to show that it reduces the risk of death or injury in a collision. The rest of your safety advice is framed around reducing the risk of being victimised rather than perpetuating a crime which is interesting. I agree with your second paragraph but then your final paragraph contradicts that. And the example is bollocks - how is that a comparable scenario??! And who thinks that? Are men who commit sexual violence the cayman in this scenario? So men are animals who act on instinct and commit sexual violence in order to survive?

I was sleeping in the same bed as my husband when I woke up to him raping me. Do you consider that I was putting myself in a risk of rape situation?

Is there any evidence that this will stop rape?

Teaching children boundaries and respect is necessary, of course, but I am not entirely sure about this being effective in rape prevention in the same way that I am not sure that we can 'teach' children not to murder.

It seems to contain the suggestion that if nobody tells a boy not to rape, he will sort of accidentally fall into it.

Rape is calculated violence. A man who rapes is not operating on some misunderstanding or lack of knowlege, imo. He is deliberately committing an act of violence, aggression and cruelty.

Yes. I really think that "no measures a woman can take could ever prevent her from being raped". I think there is NOTHING that I could do that would ENSURE that I would NEVER be raped.

As pointed out, most rapes / sexual assaults are from people known to the victim and are absolutely nothing to do with what the victim is wearing, how drunk they are etc. The solution to this is very complex, but is all about modifying the behaviour of men and attitudes held in our society.

Women can be taught red flags to look out for in a relationship. I think Mumsnet is a great example of women pointing out the signs of abuse to other women. This is not something that's generally taught, ime.

Obviously not and I'm very sorry that happened to you. The kind of things Kathleen Stock talks about are only addressing the 'stranger danger' aspect of rape risk, not the far more common risk from partners, exes, friends, dates or acquaintances.

The things that really put a woman or girl at risk of rape or sexual assault are almost without exception things outwith her control.

Being young. Being poor. Being physically vulnerable. Having a reputation for being "bad" already. Having negligent parents or having already suffered abuse.

This "don't wear short skirts and walk down dark alleys" stuff... It's the illusion of control. Not actual control. Worse, because it sets people up to relentlessly question victims on what they did wrong, in a way absolutely unique to rape.

This. Is. Not. The. Way.