Billy Bragg

[FinallyPeakedNow]

Just watched Billy Bragg live. I was cheering along with the political stuff, climate change etc and then he starts with TWAW and I had to leave. Fucksake

I may have missed this but why is Robin Ince a misogynist?

Of course men Like Bragg are entitled to their views. But they are not entitled to tell women how we should give our rights away to other men.

Women's rights are not men's to give away.

So why do you think that an employee (human with penis) should be required to strip search a human without a penis?

That would be entirely appropriate if the person without a penis was a person who used to have a penis.

I’m sure BB means well, but his USP is as a campaigner. He’s a wealthy man these days apparently (reported net wealth £5m). He made it himself, but he can hardly campaign on a “f@ck the rich” basis any more with any credibility. I suspect this is behind his move to identity politics and Scottish etc independence.

He is entitled to his opinion, but having no skin in the game it is worth less than women’s opinions on this issue.

yes, we should be kind and tolerant to different ways of living, but to say there is no clash with women’s rights is to lie, or be wilfully underinformed.

should women prisoners have to share cells and showers with male bodied people - no

should women have to compete in their sports against male bodied people - no

should women be forced to have male bodied people present while they are being intimately searched or while they are discussing their rape - no

should women be dismissed as genital fetishists because as lesbians they don’t want to date male bodied transbians - no.

You have no skin in this game Billy Bragg. It makes you feel righteous but you personally give up nothing. Would you give away disabled rights or black people’s hard fought rights? I don’t think so.

That’s a bit of a weird leap to take!

Obviously, there will be instances which are pretty out of the ordinary like this, and in some cases perhaps extra safeguarding is needed.

It should be possible to create a society that is welcoming and inclusive while at the same time introducing safeguards where they’re actually needed.

I actually agree with all that. What I don't agree with is that TWAW and should be given the same rights as women without question. Trans lives do matter, but not at the expense of others. Bragg was making no distinction between women and transwomen.

Also, I don't want him cancelled or shut down, I appreciate being exposed to opposing views. But after I had heard his views I decided that maybe the music wasn't good enough (only went along as he is someone I had heard of but never take paid attention to) to sacrifice a ceilidh on the other stage and off I toddled

"Am not at all surprised that Billy Bragg and Grace Petrie would stand up for trans rights and that the crowd would cheer. Some of us have empathy for people who come from different backgrounds from ourselves."

Lol.

You're talking about two of the least tolerant people there are. They don't have ANY empathy for people who come from different backgrounds from themselves. Bragg is openly misogynistic. What "backgrounds" do you imagine trans identifying people come from, btw? Demographically, it's one of the whitest, most privileged and middle class movements there is. If you're a person who honestly believes that your inner feels should overrride the material reality of literally every other group in a widely diverse society and that everybody not bowing down to your self-perceptions at all times is "oppression", I can tell you that you're not someone who has ever experienced oppression. First world, luxury beliefs

Do you have empathy for actually marginalised people? You know, the unfashionable ones who don't get a voice or glossy spreads in Vogue like those who are elderly or infirm, those who have disabilities, disabled women who have been told they are "bigots" if they want a choice of who does their intimate care if they are unable to do it themselves? How about female prisoners or domestic violence or rape victims, or are they all considered too much of the "lower orders" for such supposedly 'kindly' people to care about or even notice?

Nope nothing so complex, just a simple old fashioned split (no missing or lost penis involved) between the humans with penis and humans without penis

Off topic, but SLF pro-IRA? I never thought that for a moment! They always seemed 100% pro-peace and anti-violence to me. I haven’t listened to their material beyond the early 90s but the lyrics to Each Dollar a Bullet are a really harrowing take on the Troubles. Can’t imagine they’d support any group that used such appalling violence targeting innocent people.

I’ve seen Billy B a few times before (never again!) and he’s preaching to the choir, he’s a dyed in the wool left-winger who’s not taking any risks, he’s sticking to the playbook. The trans thing has been taken up as the left’s new crusade of ‘be kind to the disadvantaged group’ so it’s a mine of material for Billy to preach about… but it’s NOT a simplistic left/right issue and you can’t call women fascists for seeing a conflict of rights.

I can't get passed the irony of this thread wanting to shut him down.

Is that what the thread has been saying?

That he shouldn't be allowed to perform or express opinions?

All are entitled to their view

When people were getting banned on Twitter for saying "men aren't women" the response from a lot of the left was, "they are a private company they can do what they like".

So apparently mega corporations can just censor the truth, that everyone believed until 5 minutes ago, and what is really important for progressives is property rights for big business.

Not an odd leap at all

Ireland adoped the gold standard of self ID in 2015. It was held up to be a shining example by TRA. So with Irish self ID (unless the human with a penis is or has engaged in an unlawful sex specific sexual act) humans with penis became a female human with a penis. By 2019 the prison system for humans without a penis had to house a human with a penis and humans without a penis who were employed there expected to carry out strip searches. If a human with a penis in the Irish police or prison service self IDs as a human without a penis they can not be discriminated against when carrying out their roles so no safeguarding is possible.

Then in Scotland TRA's were lobbying to allow a human with a penis engage in investigation medical exams on humans who had only consented to an examination by humans without a penis. The TRA lobbyed that the human with a penis should be allowed to use this non-consentual investigation in criminal trials with an aim of convicting humans who engaged in non-consentual contact.

A number of UK police force have made public statements confirming that they would allow humans with a penis strip search humans without penis who have been detained in police cells.

So if you are saying no to employees being required to strip searches how about if the human with a penis is not an active participant but rather just there as an onlooker. Would that be ok?

The dickwipe can say what he likes. Fans can choose to walk out of gigs if he starts with that homophobic, misogynistic shite. People are free to point out that he is talking homophobic misogynistic shite but aren't always allowed to.

'there will be instances which are pretty out of the ordinary like this, and in some cases perhaps extra safeguarding is needed'

That would be great. Unfortunately, every 'safeguarding' measure in the Gender Reform Recognition Bill in Scoltand was voted out and rejected by the Scottish Government.

They seem to think that any form of safeguarding is 'transphobic'.

Women are not allowed to say no to men, ever.

'A lot of people who go to these festivals, like myself, believe in being kind and accepting of people from different backgrounds. I am not at all surprised that Billy Bragg and Grace Petrie would stand up for trans rights and that the crowd would cheer. Some of us have empathy for people who come from different backgrounds from ourselves.'

That's great. Do you have empathy for women in prison, too?

The important thing to remember about people who spout their support for "trans rights" is that there are no consequences for them. It does Bragg no harm at all if women are forced to share changing rooms with men, or if a disabled woman is forced to receive intimate care from a man or if a lesbian is refused membership of a dating app because she won't agree to sleep with men. The same is true for many of the women who claim to support trans rights - they are generally middle-class women who will never be sharing prison space with a rapist or making use of a domestic violence shelter where men are present. It's the ultimate in luxury beliefs.

This. Absolutely this.

I’ve often thought that about prisons. When women who spout TWAW obviously never imagine that they or anyone they know could ever be in a prison cell. They simply don’t care and there are no implications for them (or so they think).

Luxury beliefs. This.

What an abject disappointment Bragg is.

CorruptedCauldron · Today 11:44

Off topic, but SLF pro-IRA? I never thought that for a moment! They always seemed 100% pro-peace and anti-violence to me.

That's how it seems to me, they're anti-establishment, to be sure. The song you mentioned, "Each Dollar a bullet, each victim someone's son, And Irishmen kill Irishmen as surely as if they fired the gun." is about the madness of people of different religions in the same country killing one another.

Alternative Ulster goes "Take a look where you're living, You've got the Army on the Street, And the RUC dog of oppression, barking at your feet...." I've got Catholic friends who refuse to listen to them, on account of them being "fucking Pr*ds."

Oh @FinallyPeakedNow I'm going to the event next weekend where BB has replaced the Proclaimers 😒
Till your post, I'd kind of hoped it just wouldn't come up, and I could listen in denial. But it sounds unbearable all round.

Also - who was it said Robin Ince was also a knobhead?! I didn't know this. NOOOOOOO....

Just went to his Twitter/X page trying to find something to suggest he's confused rather than a frank misogynist, but even his pinned tweet has me cringing... "In the early 80s, I realised if I wanted to hear music that said something about the state of the world, I’d have to make it myself. To mark my 40th anniversary, I’ve compiled a number of commemorative releases spanning my career since then". I know it's just promotion, but fuck me, it's hilariously self-important 😂. If only SOMEONE else in the world was capable of politically intelligent music in the 80s, so Billy didn't have to carry this burden on his shoulders alone...

😁Poor Billy. So stunning and brave, just him and his music (and quite a lot of money) against all that injustice.

That disappointment is real!

been in a right grump since I found out.

I used to like a bit of Michelle Shocked back in the day but I think she said something controversial and now there's a bloke calling himself Michelle Blocked doing you-tube covers of her work...not the same really.

I feel your pain.
Would walk 500 miles to escape Billy right now.

Yes, Each Dollar… definitely highlights the utter futility of violence and how each victim is “someone’s son”. I always read the first verse as a plea to Americans to stop funding the IRA. As for the ‘RUC dog of oppression’ - well, like many punk bands SLF strongly disliked the police for their heavy-handed methods (as referenced in the song Law and Order).

Never could wrap my head around the whole Irish Catholic / Protestant thing and all the misery and violence it caused. It’s all just Christianity to me (and I’m an atheist)!

^ this. I used to find him massively cringe but how I think he is a dangerous idiot.