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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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19
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 14:05

Done. I don't have much time for the rest of the day so maybe other people could jump on the AIBU thread if they have time.

I am already being called a terf Confused

Slothtoes · 23/08/2023 14:40

Not RTFT and interested to read it in context of todays news about sisters having successful womb transplants.
I am interested in the question of how the NHS should deal with people changing their minds and wanting complex operations, because the NHS also funds elective cosmetic surgery operations to do with people ‘changing sex’. I wonder if it was ever a question for the innovators who began to offer this treatment on the NHS. It should be a specifically urgent question to answer for TM who have lost the opportunity to bear children themselves, especially if the womb removal was initially needed to avoid cancer risk after taking male hormones. It should be a part of full consent to give this information before doing an elective hysterectomy so women or transmen know what they are going into.

So I think the answer to OP question depends on how we answer the above question. And for example whether the NHS already pays to reverse vasectomies for men or reverses permanent contraception for women or not. All the above is regarding the possibility of womb transplants for transmen, who are biologically women.

Theres no way the NHS should find womb transplants for biological men whatever gender identity those men feel they are. That should never happen. Safety issues obviously for the man but also even if safety could be sorted out, which is never because men’s bodies aren’t designed to be pregnant, public money should never be spent the NHS to provide it. Too avoidably high risk for any baby to indulge in catering to any male wants there. It should also be banned completely by law so that men can’t get it done privately in the UK. Some unscrupulous other countries will always provide it privately at great risk, of course.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/08/2023 15:12

ditalini · 23/08/2023 10:52

I think the placenta is a two way task between the fetus and the uterus, but we know from the limited animal experiments that no, the male physiology can't support a pregnancy, even when a uterus is implanted.

The Chinese rat experiment relied on a female rat being attached to the male rat's blood supply, and in addition, that female rat needed to be pregnant at the same time that the male rat's implanted uterus was carrying a pregnancy.

No male rats became pregnant when attached to a non-pregnant female rat.

I think you could make an argument that the male rat wasn't actually ever pregnant. Instead, that rat's body became an extension of the female rat and she supported pregnancies in two uteri.

Edited

Most of the rat embryos transferred into the male rats died. Of the live births, a further proportion died soon after birth.

Should Uterus Transplantation for Transwomen and Transmen Be Subsidized?
DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 23/08/2023 18:12

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 23/08/2023 15:12

Most of the rat embryos transferred into the male rats died. Of the live births, a further proportion died soon after birth.

Poor rats. What a disgusting misuse of medical testing. We do not need to abuse animals to work out if males can gestate. There is no biological imperative to do so as women, the genuine version, are hardly unusual.
I am appalled that scientists have done this and in my mind it is akin to testing cosmetics on animals and fur coats.

NitroNine · 23/08/2023 18:45

@PorcelinaV
I’m genuinely not sure if you can prescribe a drug off-label that the FDA has stated is not to be used for that purpose. Off-label prescribing [n the US] is also generally reserved for when there are either no other drugs available or you’ve failed the usual treatments.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/08/2023 19:16

I can't believe that horrible rat experiment would have got ethical approval in a western country. The piece I read (there's a link in the thread on FWR) said it got a lot of criticism and the author asked for the paper to be withdrawn from the preprint server, but it wasn't. I don't know if it's been fully peer reviewed and published now?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/08/2023 19:20

Sorry, I was getting confused which thread I was on, this is the FWR one.duh.

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 23/08/2023 20:48

That rat experiment carried out on humans would make a fantastic horror movie.

A woman is kidnapped and stitched to her crossdressing ex husband so he can gestate ‘their’ child, as a some sort of fucked up revenge for her getting custody of their daughter in the divorce.

It would be like Boxing Helena, Martyrs, The Human Caterpillar and The Brood all rolled into one.

David Cronenberg, if you make this movie you owe me for concept copyright.

Tessisme · 23/08/2023 21:17

I don't even want to answer as I feel I'm giving credence to something absolutely preposterous.

Still, it's a NO.

Rudderneck · 23/08/2023 22:17

NitroNine · 23/08/2023 03:10

Apologies for engaging in/with derail everyone, but…

@Coyoacan @Nousernamesleftatall

No offense, but if you want someone to realise you’re addressing them, you need to indicate you’re doing so.

What the FDA actually say re: Ivermectin (ie don’t use it); & the Cochrane Review from 2022: it doesn’t work - not a shock, given it’s an anti-parasitic. When talking about the Supreme Court, do you mean the Supreme Court of the State of Wisconsin who ruled in May that Aurora Hospital could not be forced to treat Covid-19 with Ivermectin? Note the reiteration of the fact the FDA have not approved the drug for covid. What cannot be prevented is people procuring the drug either from a doctor willing to lie about the ICD10 code or via the veterinary route & taking it for covid-19.

You would have to be foolish indeed not to think there are issues with the pharmaceutical industry & indeed the FDA; but trying to stop people killing themselves with horse wormer really isn’t on the list.

It's a little disingenuous to call it horse wormer when it's being used for people. Like we don't talk about giving rat antibiotics to humans, when we use the exact same medicines.

Ivermectine is approved for human use and is quite a useful drug, and not only for parasites IIRC. Just not especially useful for covid, it appears.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 23:48

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 23/08/2023 20:48

That rat experiment carried out on humans would make a fantastic horror movie.

A woman is kidnapped and stitched to her crossdressing ex husband so he can gestate ‘their’ child, as a some sort of fucked up revenge for her getting custody of their daughter in the divorce.

It would be like Boxing Helena, Martyrs, The Human Caterpillar and The Brood all rolled into one.

David Cronenberg, if you make this movie you owe me for concept copyright.

Shock Shock

I can imagine this as a film.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/08/2023 23:48

Silence of the Lambs vibes too.

stbrandonsboat · 24/08/2023 00:10

I've withdrawn consent - and told my relatives - for all donation as I don't trust doctors one bit now. They're not getting one molecule of me after my death. They can stick their frankenfetishes. You can bet there will be doctors out there who'll push the boundaries regarding uterine implants in men. It'll happen, and my body won't be helping them.

NitroNine · 24/08/2023 05:29

@Rudderneck
It was originally developed for use in veterinary medicine; it is most widely used there; & WRT its usage & Covid-19, most of the issue is people quite literally purchasing horse wormer online & taking it, such that the FDA & other US government information providers warn against doing so. So rather than being in any way disingenuous it’s entirely accurate to say “horse wormer” because vanishingly few people are getting Ivermectin prescribed to them but are, as I said, purchasing & consuming the product intended for equines. And crucially, in the specific instance I was linking to, the man who died was taking the veterinary formulation of ivermectin.

Apparently Ivermectin’s drug class is actually antihelmintic so even narrower than just “antiparasitic”. 🤷‍♀️

In the UK it can be prescribed for: Papulopustular rosacea (explanation, no images); Chronic Strongyloides infection (aka threadworm, again, no images); Onchocerciasis (WHO information on River Blindness: no images on landing page, I’ve not read everything); & Scabies, in combination with topical drugs, for the treatment of hyperkeratotic (crusted or ‘Norwegian’) scabies that does not respond to topical treatment alone (NHS Inform - no images).

Only the first on the list is (again, in the UK) a licensed use; the others, ie oral usage, are unlicensed. Interestingly, that is also the one instance where it isn’t obviously acting as an antiparasitic/people might not appreciate it’s functioning as such; & it’s also the only topical usage. However, a 2016 paper in Clinical, Cosmetic and Investigational Dermatology posited that there is a multifactorial etiology of the disease. Topical ivermectin has emerged as a viable treatment option, which is likely to be beneficial due to its activity as an anti-inflammatory and anti-parasitic agent targeting Demodex mites which may be colonizing the pilosebaceous units of patients with the disease. The NICE Evidence Summary from January that year is on pretty much the same page: The mechanism of action for treating the inflammatory lesions of rosacea is not known, but may be linked to the anti‑inflammatory effects of ivermectin, as well as causing the death of Demodex folliculorum mites. Crucially, though, this 2022 paper in Dermatologic Therapy confirms that the mechanism is as had been suggested in 2016. (The 2017 paper that made the confirmation is not open access but is referenced.)

I didn’t say ivermectin isn’t a useful drug. But, as per the 2022 Cochrane Review (link in my previous post) it’s not useful at all in treating Covid. Its uses full stop are pretty narrow: & they are all antiparasitic; although the one topical treatment exploits its anti-inflammatory properties too.

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a607069.html#:~:text=Ivermectin%20is%20in%20a%20class,cure%20this%20type%20of%20infection.

WarriorN · 24/08/2023 06:12

If they get a uterus they'll have to have progesterone too somehow.

The endocrine system surely won't cope

aweegc · 24/08/2023 07:36

It should be subsidised for trans women if anybody who wants a third arm attached to their shoulder, or a third leg attached to their hip can have one subsidised too.

A trans man is a biological woman (or they'd be a man) and assuming they meet the criteria that any other woman who wants one meets then there's no reason why they shouldn't.

Sisterpita · 24/08/2023 08:27

I know there are two threads from different perspectives running so I may have missed if someone has already posted this.

If transmen are seeking hysterectomies as part of their transition do they become a source of live donors? A lot are young and healthy women, so potentially good donors. Obviously they couldn’t have taken puberty blockers etc.

We could end up in a mad situation where a 20 year old donates her womb. It’s implanted in another woman and as per guidance removed after 5 years. However at age 23 the donor wants her womb back so there are court cases seeking to have their own womb re implanted.

DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn · 24/08/2023 08:44

I find it very bizarre that, if a 24 year old went to the GP and asked to be sterilised because she didn't want any children, it is likely that they would refuse it.
If said she wanted to to be a man they would happily comply and remove the lot.

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/08/2023 09:00

There is a very important aspect of this that I don't think has been covered (apologies if I missed it) and that is the health of the sister who donated her womb.

As understanding has improved, it has become clear that wombs are important to the female body even in a woman who has been through the menopause.

"Research in recent years has begun to challenge the notion that the uterus is a dormant, useless organ in older females, instead playing an important role in healthy bodily and cognitive function via direct connections between the uterus and the brain through the body’s autonomic nervous system. The system is responsible for unconscious functions, such as breathing or digestion, and now it seems that these loosely understood links between uterus and brain may have a significant impact on how females age."

https://www.betteraging.com/aging-science/does-a-hysterectomy-or-oophorectomy-increase-the-likelihood-of-dementia/

I do wonder what is going to happen in the future to the cohort of female people with trans identities that have had a 'gender affirming hysterectomy' especially if they have the oophorectomy too.

We really need to increase people's understanding of biology and how the body works. These organs do not function in isolation to the rest of the body.

Hysterectomies and the Female Risk of Dementia

The correlation between dementia and hysterectomy is still unclear. Scientists are looking into a link between hysterectomy or oophorectomy and dementia.

https://www.betteraging.com/aging-science/does-a-hysterectomy-or-oophorectomy-increase-the-likelihood-of-dementia

Notamum12345577 · 24/08/2023 09:03

PorcelinaV · 22/08/2023 02:27

As far as I know this hasn't been mentioned yet on the forum?

Anyway quoting from the source:

Transwomen who want to gestate children. Even though there has been no uterus transplant to date in transwomen that we know of, some clinicians have maintained that there are no absolute barriers in anatomy, hormones, and obstetric considerations that would rule out the possibility of successful UTx in transwomen.11 Transwomen wanting to gestate children can plausibly justify subsidy of UTx on a number of grounds, as mentioned above. Transwomen lack a trait (the ability to bear children) that may cause them to experience psychological dissonance in a way that undermines their health and well-being. The lack of a uterus also closes off the prospect of gestating a child in a way that is available to women as a class. It follows that lack of a uterus is an obstacle to full participation in the social goods attached to women’s identity.

There has been a uterus transplant to a trans woman. It was in 1931, she died not long after though.

ApocalipstickNow · 24/08/2023 09:09

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 23/08/2023 20:48

That rat experiment carried out on humans would make a fantastic horror movie.

A woman is kidnapped and stitched to her crossdressing ex husband so he can gestate ‘their’ child, as a some sort of fucked up revenge for her getting custody of their daughter in the divorce.

It would be like Boxing Helena, Martyrs, The Human Caterpillar and The Brood all rolled into one.

David Cronenberg, if you make this movie you owe me for concept copyright.

I very much appreciate this post because it has my favourite director in it but the nerd in me has to correct your Caterpillar to Centipede.

(Although a body horror about multiple people stitched together and munching their way through a week’s worth of apples, oranges, salami and chocolate cake could be a goer!)

HeedlessAndUnbridledConcupiscence · 24/08/2023 09:11

If transmen are seeking hysterectomies as part of their transition do they become a source of live donors? A lot are young and healthy women, so potentially good donors.

It's been suggested. Transgender Males as Potential Donors for Uterus Transplantation: A Survey

The use of live donors enables extensive pre-transplantation evaluation and planning. Living donors have mainly been relatives of the recipients, often their mothers, and so had emotional and genetic relationships with them [7]. However, experience shows that potential related donors have a 75% risk of not fulfilling current inclusion criteria [8]. An alternative to directed living donation is altruistic, non-directed donation. It is currently offered by two teams [9,10].
Uterus donation by patients with a normal uterus requiring hysterectomy could also be performed. Furthermore, the surgical operation would not be carried out for the sole purpose of a uterine transplantation. Such is the case for transgender males who decide to have a hysterectomy as part of their gender-affirming surgery.

Carbonnel M, Karpel L, Corruble N, Legendri S, Pencole L, Cordier B, Racowsky C, Ayoubi JM. Transgender Males as Potential Donors for Uterus Transplantation: A Survey. J Clin Med. 2022 Oct 14;11(20):6081. doi: 10.3390/jcm11206081. PMID: 36294400; PMCID: PMC9605112.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9605112/

Transgender Males as Potential Donors for Uterus Transplantation: A Survey

Uterus transplantation is a new treatment for patients with absolute uterine infertility that is conducted in order to enable them to carry their own pregnancy. One of the limitations for its development is donor availability. Some transgender males un...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9605112

Sisterpita · 24/08/2023 09:13

@DaphneDeloresMoreheadRidesOn sadly many women of 35 with 2 children are refused hysterectomies but 18+ year old transmen are being given them.

The NHS is truly captured hence the concerns about transwomen.

Sisterpita · 24/08/2023 09:16

@HeedlessAndUnbridledConcupiscence thanks for the quote - makes me go cold.