Should Uterus Transplantation for Transwomen and Transmen Be Subsidized?

[PorcelinaV]

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/should-uterus-transplantation-transwomen-and-transmen-be-subsidized/2023-06

"Transwomen lack a trait (the ability to bear children) that may cause them to experience psychological dissonance in a way that undermines their health and well-being"

And what about the child born from such a uterus? What about their psychological dissonance that may undermine their health and well-being?

I've seen a couple of posts on this area of the forum where posters have corrected the language to reality/fact based language (eg use male and female correctly) and it really brings everything into focus. I suspect that the paper in the original post would greatly benefit from that kind of update.

It makes me think of the male breastfeeding issue.

To me it all seems like a sexual fetish. A fetish that needs to involve children to happen. Children who cannot consent.

NHS money shouldn't be funding child abuse.

Maybe they could put the money into natal woman's healthcare as we know that's seriously in need. Or put it into research into sexual fetishisation of womanhood and female experiences

Exactly my thoughts. What of the biological women who face heartbreak every day because their body that is supposed to work this way , doesn't

It makes me think of the male breastfeeding issue.

To me it all seems like a sexual fetish.

In the Imperial College documents given to their survey participants they said about hormone treatment:

"... a cyclical regime would be given instead, to enable the recipient to experience periods."

" The social goods attached to women's identity"

What dystopia is this?

Having skimmed that paper, it needs tearing apart (before being torn up).
The cost of UTx in a woman is not comparable to the likely costs of attempting this in a male or even a masculinised woman. As to As UTx is clinically safe and effective in principle ... there's no evidence that is the case in these groups (neither for the adult or potential offspring), the awful rat study cited upthread suggests otherwise and the necessary animal experiments that would need to precede anything in humans are unethical.

Should this Mengele-type procedure ever happen, would the pregnant males be subjected to the same abortion restrictions that are imposed upon pregnant females? If they are entitled to be made pregnant because it's what they want, would they be equally entitled to be made un-pregnant because it's what they want? Or would they consider it discriminatory to be treated the same as women in this context?

UTx is clinically safe and effective in principle

To be fair, it is. It's been done and there have been successful pregnancies and births.

Uterus implant is a very different matter.

No, it's absolute madness. The NHS can hardly afford cancer treatments. If trans people want it they should fund this type of unnecessary operation. Girls having their breast cut off for preference rather than need should be self funded too. I find it grotesque.

Useful discussion about transplants, implants, reproductive justice, ethics, and the NHS in this thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546250-indian-surgeon-plans-to-transplant-a-womb-into-a-transwomen?reply=117140342&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share&utm_source=copylink

This is so abhorrent that I cannot believe any surgeon would do this

And yet they will perform mastectomies on mentally distressed young women and girls or genital surgery on young men.
Anything for money.

What needs to happen is people actually saying no to all these male fantasists and fetishists who, let's face it, have zero fucking clue about how a woman's body actually works.

It should be illegal to even consider pulling body parts out of real women to try & sew into men.

It should not be allowed to happen, or be part of any research ever, just as other monstrous acts are not allowed because they are evil.

Even considering doing this is something nobody with a shred of humanity would do.

It should be illegal to even consider pulling body parts out of real women to try & sew into men.

It should not be allowed to happen, or be part of any research ever,

As I mentioned, when questioned about their intentions in 2019, Imperial College flat out lied about it. The research lead, Ben Jones, told Kellie Jay Keen that they were not looking at uterus transplants into men because it was impossible, illegal and there was no demand for it. When you read their literature it says that they believe it would have to be legal under the Equality Act as otherwise it would be discrimination, which is nonsense but that's the beliefs of the people who were researching it.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

It should not be allowed to happen, or be part of any research ever, just as other monstrous acts are not allowed because they are evil.

Rosa Freedman is excellent on the origin of human rights post WW2. The Helsinki Declaration and regulation of medical experimentation are key parts of human rights.

The people who negotiated and wrote those must be spinning like they're in a centrifuge.

A lot of people aren’t aware that transplants don’t last forever. A transplanted organ will last between 5 and 20 years, depending on the type of organ and how lucky you are. The anti rejection drugs fuck you up too. Basically they suppress your immune system, making you susceptible to all sorts of diseases - even a bad flu can make you seriously ill. And in the long term the drugs cause cancer after maybe 20-30 years. Who is realistically going to expose themselves to that because of “feelings”?

Man wants to have an abortion?! - YouTube

Straight from the horses mouth.
So to speak.

This has been a major change in the way we think about medicine, but also the law.

We demand accommodations of some kind as a kind of correction or compensation for material reality when it seems "unfair". Which these days means doesn't fit in with someone's view of equality.

It's really important to see this as part of a bigger picture. People are demanding this stuff because we've already normalized it to a large extent, we've already said that we need to compensate people, or somehow create an even playing field, even when the element of material reality in question is perfectly functional, normal, working properly.

People who think it's a good idea to expose women to severe, and severely premature, osteoporosis and vaginal atrophy? Never, feelings. People who think it's a good idea to damage developing bodies and minds? Because, feelings. People who think it's a good Idea to have themselves emasculated in order to create an artificial cavity that will need daily dilatation, cleaning and luxuriating for life? Because, feelings.

As for transplants only lasting a few years, together Willy all the ongoing dangers of anti-rejection drugs, wherever a utters has been transplanted into a woman for the purpose of her caring a pregnancy, that uterus is then removed after the baby's birth - because all those hazards are not justifiable when they do not prolong life. But, hey, let's not let medical ethics get in the way here.

Not that I'm even convinced that it is ethical to transplant uteruses even between females.

In fact, transplanted uterii (in females) last one pregnancy, exceptionally two, before being removed.

The risk of damage from the anti-rejection meds is only outweighed by the benefit of pregnancy. Once that's achieved then it's out with it.

And while successful pregnancies have been achieved, it's not many - far, far more failures than successes. This is not by any stretch a routine option for women with MRKH who want a baby.

If its being implanted in a man then its not a transplant. Its a cosmetic procedure. That's not something the taxpayer can afford. International treaties ban experiments on humans without consent; a fetus can never consent. IDK how proposals for implants in men or artificial 'wombs' could pass an ethics committee without dismantling human rights laws. You might also want to think about where the donated wombs will be harvested from.If your activism is working towards dismantling human rights legislation, its not a civil or human rights movement.

God that it stomach-churning.

Why? Just, why?

I completely agree, but children have been created by donor gametes and surrogate mothers, there are calls to fertilise eggs without sperm - just by putting DNA in it, calls for ‘3 gamete’ embryos where an egg has had its DNA removed.. The ethics of any of this is barely considered, even though none of it can be for the benefit of the child. These things are being pushed for by adults with infertility issues, same sex couples and the scientists and practitioners who are eager to try it and exploit it.
There doesn’t seem to be much of an appetite to stop it all and get some child-centred ethics. Just half-arsed resignation that it will just be done in a country where there are no medical ethics to hold anyone back, so we might as well do it here.

Although the idea of implanting a womb into a man so he can realise his dysfunctional obsession/fantasy of being a pregnant woman, is truly revolting, pointless and harmful, doesn’t mean that the will isn’t there and the will to stop it is.

Totally agree.
There are already experiments on embryos, and it won't take much more for the barriers to be moved back even further to allow these Frankenstinian type of "advances" in science to become a sick reality.
Who would have thought we would ever be carrying out mastectomies on young teenagers, or giving them drugs to suppress a completely normal puberty? Or even prescribing cross sex hormones to mentally ill or autistic people where it clearly is not in their best interests? 10 years ago you would have been laughed out of the room for suggesting that such a thing would ever be possible, and yet the barriers have been moved to make all this acceptable.
I am sure the barriers will be moved again to make these previously derided experiments a reality.

It is also often denied that there are male people out there who have pregnancy fetishes.

Every day there is a new example being posted, being self published.

https://x.com/mscots41/status/1693665630715625582?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

There was that male person who joined a still birth support group and discussed their soon to be delivered still born infant.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4037973-Simulated-pregnancy-and-induced-lactation?page=1

However, it isn’t hard to find these people on the different social media sites. And it feeds into this ethical debate.

I, personally, think it is cruel to encourage any male person who wants to believe this is possible as it is potentially life shortening. Researcher are doing this for their own agenda not because there is a genuine need for the human race to achieve this.