Gym /. Swimming changing issue

[BelfastDadof3]

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women.
Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 and a 9yr old boy.

Also I'd say kids are bright and confident, very excepting as I've tried to bring them up to accept all body shapes and not point / shame.

I go to the gym three times a week, do my workout and the kids have a supervised kids swim lesson (just the three of them) and I meet them after for a swim and play.

There isn't family changing, but I don't think it's applicable as my girls are old enough.

So having a muffin after the swim my 9yr old boy asked me.
"dad, why do most of the men walk about naked in the changing room?Willie's out. Is it not normal to have a towel around you untill you get your pants on."

So I said some people were just very free, but I think it's a bit over the top. Bit of a discussion about respecting others space etc and then my boy said" it's also odd that some shave all their body hair off, even the old fat men, it's weird looking"

Normal ish conversation.

Then he asked the girls what happens in the changing rooms. They were a bit horrified and said that most women and girls had big towels and kept private. Because - their words " girls arnt horrible like boys"

Then the eldest daughter said "a room full of men drying their bits would be duscusting. When the [transwoman - edited by MNHQ] is in the changing room we use the disabled cubicle. There's lots of room and we don't have to see him dry his bits. And (jokingly) his man bum and huge boobs do not look nice."

So really I don't know how to approach this.
I presumed that if a man transfered to a trans woman he would have female genitals. Maybe I'm niave.

It's a really nice gym and pool - Bannatynes - a treat for the kids..
Is this the same everywhere?
If I raise it with the manager am I being transphobic to suggest no penises in the female changing?

Assuming @BelfastDadof3's username gives the location of the gym, then that's the one I go to. There's some context he didn't provide (most of which involves the inside of the womens changing rooms, so he may not know.)

Outside the changing rooms there's a lots of children's swimming class times. I use that to avoid times when the pool amd changing g room are full of (often unaccompanied) children. Others may not.

The female changing room is clearly labelled on the door.

When you open the door the first thing you see is a second clear, eye-level sign saying that males over the age of 8 are not permitted to enter.

You then walk past the loos - several stalls that should be kept free for their main purpose but people do sometimes change in them.

Next there's the fully- enclosed disabled cubicle that the OP's daughters retreat to if the transwoman is present.

The main changing area is divided into multiple bays, each of which also contains 1 private changing cubicle (door not floor to ceiling but the gaps are small).

The showers have very well frosted doors - no shelf or hooks so not practical for changing, but all 'drying of bits' could certainly be done in there rather than in the open area.

Then before the door to the pool there's another fully enclosed toilet cubicle, easily large enough to change in.

Even if the TW doesn't feel safe to use the men's, and therefore breaks the gym rule to use the women's, there are multiple private spaces within that area where they could change. That wouldn't of course protect the privacy and dignity of the women and girls changing in the open area, but it would at least avoid flashing them.

So anyone exposing a penis in those changing room is making an absolutely deliberate choice.

Oh for an edit button.

'there's a lots list of children's swimming class times'

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn so what you are really saying is the man has other options but instead he is deliberately choosing to be in the open changing room flashing his bit while girls, who may well be unaccompanied are getting changed.

Op has absolutely done the right thing. It would be even worse if his situation was the other way around, the two oldest boys and his youngest going in there alone.

The female changing room is clearly labelled on the door.

When you open the door the first thing you see is a second clear, eye-level sign saying that males over the age of 8 are not permitted to enter.

Surprise surprise, deliberate transgression of quite clear boundaries. When will kate come back and tell us this is completely fine and raises no red flags at all?

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn that’s very useful context.

I agree. Makes it very clear what was going on, thank you @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn.

That's exactly how I remember the layout of the London Bannatynes I was a member of some years ago.

The bays were quite small and crowded so you really did need to dry off in the shower cubicles and then nip in and out of the bays.

I rarely go swimming when there are kids lessons on as it's noisy and busy so if these girls see this member regularly it's very much a choice.

Seems there are absolutely no genuine reasons for this person to be in those changing rooms. Nice of the pool to post lists of when the greatest number of naked children/teenagers/women will be present. How odd to choose to swim at such noisy splashy times of day.

Is it transphobic to shudder at this?

Sorry, meant to say “to BE NAKED in those changing rooms”, although shouldn’t even have got as far as the first sign banning men.

Why has nobody else reported him?

There must be mums in the changing room at the same time.

Does nobody see him in the pool, then heading into the female changing, is he even using the pool?

I'm horrified to think that he is deliberately seeking the unaccompanied girls out. Op girls can't be the only girls who are getting changed without an adult with them.

Op I'm sorry if that's upsetting but it's reality.

I should think that all the mothers are too terrified to say anything. We've all read what happens to women who dissent, in these cases.

It's an absolute disgrace.

Nah. I doubt they are scared. I suspect they are the ones tripping over themselves on WhatsApp to be the first to say it's no big deal.
Brainwashed be kind mass mania is my guess.

Keep your homophobia to yourself please @calmekate. Lesbians are welcome in women’s spaces as they are women.
here’s some help with identifying people’s gender - if you’re waving your penis around in the women’s changing rooms, you’re not female. I bet male people who genuinely think they are women don’t do that, since it’s the definition of indecent exposure, a very male dominated behaviour. I was sexually abused as a child by a complete stranger - it is very very obvious to anyone that one reason for the high incidence of abuse by (nearly always) male family members and friends
Is that we have a million rules and customs to protect children from strangers, especially strange males. It’s called safeguarding, and it’s being walked back every day by people like you who think young girls need to get used to seeing penises in the changing rooms. Maybe you should go back to your notes from day 1 of whatever training you did if you work in safeguarding. It’s pretty upsetting to think you might actually work in safeguarding to be honest.

you are being very measured here op, I’d be far angrier that your daughters had to put up with that. It must be hard enough being a single dad trying to bring up young women without crap like that. I hope the gym are receptive and you email that legal dept address.

I can't decide if the mums are too scared or too polite brainswashed to say anything or if they haven't noticed, ie he's disguising himself from the mums and deliberately seeking out the unaccompanied girls.

Perhaps a bit of both?

Predators tend to be pretty good at victim selection.

Just a reminder that what @CalMeKate is advocating on this thread, is what Stonewall and its off shoots and spokespeople have been recommending in their guidance.

Peter Tatchell said in Feb 2020:

“Mr Tatchell said “I would say a different approach would be to challenge those who feel uncomfortable, to make them feel comfortable in their own bodies, and around the bodies of others, to enable them to not feel threatened or embarrassed or ashamed”.”

Meaning girls should be made to feel ‘comfortable’ being naked around male bodies in their changing rooms?

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2020/02/11/safe-schools-alliance-uk-response-to-peter-tatchell-interview-on-rt/amp/

I found this looking for another quote from Tatchell but I think it is important for readers to understand where the source of this is from. tatchell is very much still involved in Stonewall and goes to schools to do sessions with children.

And people should search for Peter Tatchell in the search function. This is a man who on numerous occasions has dismiss harm and even written support of ‘intergenerational sex’ and children. And yet… the different schools and media platform this man. Go figure. Sacred untouchable group or what?

“Intergenerational sex” - I can’t think of a creepier, more euphemistic term for CHILD ABUSE.

I so agree.

Elder abuse too.

I wonder if those who are blindly following stonewall guidance on safeguarding and saying the things that both @CalMeKate AND Peter Tatchell ever feel uncomfortable when they start to see the connection.

I believe Tatchell has actively campaigned to lower the age of consent too. And if anyone ever needs to understand what happens with that, they need to read about what happened in France with powerful men taking on 13/14 year old ‘lovers’. And it is only recently the ‘lovers’, those children, have been able to have their say in France. And accuse the state and their parents and society of allowing paedophilia in the name of progress.

It is all connected. You only have to then look up M. Foucault and his actions in lowering the age of consent and his abuse of so many children. And realise Foucault is considered one of the founders in ‘Queer Theory.’

Once you follow connections and see the premises the call to allow naked male people into communal changing spaces with women and girls, you will never see it all in the same way again. Yet we cannot call it what it is on MN as it will be deleted.

Fucking hell. I really don't know what to do. Why are there such a select few who see sense?

it’s weird, isn’t it?

I was just thinking about why some women insist that women are as strong as men and just not training hard enough to beat men at sports.

All I could come up with is those women must be fortunate enough to have never been punched by a man.

Perhaps the handwavers who think men who say they are women belong in the female change are lucky
enough never to have been
flashed at or sexually assaulted?

But then I think, surely most girls are subjected to things like catcalling and flashers by the time they are young teens?

I remember when the French women started to tell their stories about being ‘lovers’ of these men. And when they reached adulthood, those women realised what had been done to them and tried to raise the alarm. However, those men who abused them were part of Or supported by the ‘intellectuals’ who all got the age lowered. And those women were silenced. It is why rape in France is also so hard to prosecute they said. Because the laws are not written to protect women and girls.

Wasn’t it only after someone tried to use ‘they wanted it’ in a 13 year old girl’s rape trial that the age of consent was raised ? Am I remembering correctly? It was only in the past couple of years.

I raise this point for those who have never looked further than ‘be kind’ and ‘tolerant’. There is living historical examples of this still around the world.

It took those women and men four decades to be able to call out their abuse in France. The changes happened in the 70s. And they were denied the opportunity to discuss it for decades.

In a country people associate with progressiveness. And right across the channel. So we don’t have to look far!!!