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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

763 replies

AmaListening · 10/08/2023 20:47

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

OP posts:
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Froodwithatowel · 11/08/2023 08:35

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2023 07:49

Colour me utterly shocked the OP hasn’t been back. Are the screen shots on twitter yet?

I'm sure this thread will be extremely useful to MPs, SPADs and journalists lurking around. Come on in guys, we can explain this stuff all day and share the links. No leg work needed, we've done it all. For bloody years. Because apparently no one else was going to engage their brain and manage to think things through.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 11/08/2023 08:39

CatusFlatus · 11/08/2023 08:20

This is an excellent thread full of simple, rational and measured responses. I'm not sure it's played out in the way the OP wanted. I hope it's given some readers new insights into the subject.

Yes! Women don’t tend to tell others to die in a grease fire, do they? That is what MRAs do though. What does the ‘M’ stand for again?

ApocalipstickNow · 11/08/2023 08:43

Maybe if the las 10 years or so had been all about encouraging men to be kind to transpeople and start accepting people who are different from them some of this would be sorted now.

Instead it’s been dumped on women to deal with, regardless of how we feel about that.

Still, never too late to start.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2023 08:47

I too wonder what OP wanted from this thread that that could not have got from reading. And reading the many articles published each week from feminists.

PurpleBugz · 11/08/2023 08:49

I echo what everyone else has said.

I would add something along the lines of recognition that this is an ideology and have it treated as such in our schools. I don't think it should be in schools at all as I don't think transition should be first response to gender dysphoria, if we have proper treatment the time it need we would have no children transitioning as they would be adults before everything was tried. BUT because we have C of E schools I would accept Gender ideology schools if clearly labelled as such and belief is not enforced for non believers in the school.

And divorce gender ideology from autism services. Maybe like the schools have clear gender believer services like we have some faith groups supporting autistic people. But don't state fund them they should be charities and NOT THE ONLY SUPPORT AVAILABLE.

Im open to different solutions for our schools and services for young people. My motivation is to protect the children

Chequeredred · 11/08/2023 08:51

Catiette · 11/08/2023 00:34

I’d like the extremes of the movement simply to recognise me as a distinct, autonomous being.

For them to ask me to accept they TWAW in order to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to redefine myself as something I neither understand nor share - a gender identity.

For them to ask me to accept that TWAW to accommodate trans people’s perception of themselves is to ask me to accept my political, social & cultural recategorisation - and thereby give up certain rights that were contingent on my prior categorisation, designed to mitigate the disadvantages presented by my biology.

And to ask me to accept TW in female-only spaces is to ask me to perceive each & every TW in the image in which he perceives - or simply chooses to describe - himself; to replace my own perception of reality with his (the use of the male pronoun is important here in order to make this point).

Please think about this. If anything is negating a person’s autonomy in this whole, agonising debate, it’s this. Because this isn’t just a matter of courtesy. If it were, it’s still a huge ask - but it’s not. It’s asking women to disregard natural instinct & objective knowledge - that he’s far stronger than me; that he has the capacity to kill me - simply on an individual male’s say-so: “I say I’m a woman, therefore it’s ok.”

The last time I got into a lift with a strange man alone, I told myself I was silly to worry. He spent the journey deliberately intimidating me. Body language only, subtle… but unambiguous. Throughout that interminable period, he made sure that I knew, quite simply, that whatever happened to me next was up to him. Yes, I could try various things - struggle, try to get to the emergency stop behind him, yell. But, really, what chance would I have? He knew, & I knew, that if he, this total stranger, whose mind I couldn’t read, whose motives I could never know, wanted to hurt me - he could. If he wanted to do worse - he could. It was that simple. Up to him. Not a matter of 50:50 or even 70:30; not a case of I’d give as good as I got. He had all the power, I had, effectively, none.

Every single time that a woman enters an enclosed space with an unknown male, this is an act of faith on her part, in which she plays the odds that he won’t choose to hurt her, or worse.

And the odds may be very good, but the stakes? The stakes are bloody high.

I’ve never got into a lift alone with a man since. I live abroad, go out at night, walk home alone - I’m confident, I don’t limit myself. But why take this extra, unnecessary risk?

More than anything else, I want men in general to understand this. Most of us don’t live our lives in fear, but women must live with this unceasing, necessary awareness of our own vulnerability.

To those who say, But men are more often the victims of violence!: They’re also more likely to instigate it, & more able to resist. Women’s experience of male aggression is as prospective prey as opposed to prospective rival (however ill-matched). It’s different.

To those who say, you’re exaggerating: Look at Everyone’s Invited, & rape & femicide stats. Ask yourself how we can possibly know when a man may escalate or not.

To those who say, I couldn’t live in fear like you do: I truly don’t! I think a good analogy for this is the hazard perception test for drivers. I’ve driven across a continent & loved it, all the while continually, subconsciously alert to the parked car, the running kid, the red light. Similarly, I live my life well, but women do, instinctually, register (click!) the lone man, the (click!) dark underpass, the (3 points!) rustling bush to a degree that, I suspect, anecdotally, at least, would be unrecognisable to many men.

To those who say I’m reducing women to their biology, making victims of them, or - what was it? - fetishising female weakness?!: I don’t believe that acknowledging & accommodating the realities of biological difference is an admission of weakness or inferiority, or equivalent to defining women by their bodies. I in fact wonder if assumptions that it us say more about the preconceptions of the person interpreting it that way.

In summary - I exist, too.

This ⬆️

Soontobe60 · 11/08/2023 08:52

Whyjustwhy123 · 10/08/2023 22:33

@Hollyhead not read the whole thread but just want to pick something up.

Should my 14 year old DD have to play sport against 14 year old boys who say they are girls just because she’s not a professional? Do I or she have any say on this? Because I know for a fact she would not want this and I certainly do not. So I’m sorry professional or not make bodied people play in male sports or ‘open’ categories regardless of ‘professional’ status.

Totally agree.
we need to start at the very bottom rung of sports. That’s where children can show any possible potential in competitive sports. How can someone be talent spotted for, say, football if she won’t even play the game because she has to play alongside boys?

Clymene · 11/08/2023 08:52

Here's Elliot Page with JK Simmons and Jennifer Garner. Garner is 5'8.

Page is a tiny tiny person.

If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?
Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2023 08:59

To paraphrase Blackadder, EP is about as “convincing as a giraffe in dark glasses trying to get into a polar bears only nightclub”

but if EP wants to insist they are a man, that’s up to them. They’re not though & I hope EP remembers that sometimes biology does matter so they remember things like they still need to do their smear tests

RoyalCorgi · 11/08/2023 09:03

The question is framed in an interesting way, because the truth is that gender-critical feminists aren't making any demands of trans people: all the demands are coming from the other direction. Trans women are demanding that we "respect" their pronouns, trans women are demanding that they are allowed to take part in women-only sports, trans women are demanding that they be allowed to use women's toilets, women's changing rooms, women's rape crisis centres and, if they commit a crime, to be admitted to women's prisons. Trans women are demanding that if they are health or care professionals they should be allowed to carry out an intimate examination on women even if the women don't want it. In other words, trans women are demanding a set of special privileges that are denied to other men.

All gender-critical women are saying is: no, you can't have those special privileges. Other men don't have them, so you can't either. We are not asking that trans women do anything. Or trans men either, for that matter.

RavingStone · 11/08/2023 09:04

catiette put this brilliantly:

Every single time that a woman enters an enclosed space with an unknown male, this is an act of faith on her part, in which she plays the odds that he won’t choose to hurt her, or worse.

And the odds may be very good, but the stakes? The stakes are bloody high.

I am someone who has already paid a high price for an encounter such as this, and also an equally high price for an encounter with a known man in an enclosed space. Two different, dangerous people. One my teacher, one a stranger. Different races, different presentations, different hair styles. Only common factor was they were both MALE. Which is no surprise if you understand statistics.

The result is PTSD. Nobody would choose this. I wish my body didn't need to be assured that the HCP doing my smear test was female, for example, but it does. I really wish some kindness would be sent back in the other direction from TRAs towards women like me.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2023 09:18

I identify as rich. Therefore I can walk into any shop, pretend to pay for whatever I want and walk out with anything I want. Stopping me is traumatic and makes me very distressed. Therefore I demand that my identity is respected. My actions have no impact on anyone else, as no one has been inconvenienced or hurt. If I do not get what I want I become depressed and want to hurt myself.

How is this any different to claiming you are the opposite sex and making demands at the expense of the safety, dignity and privacy of the opposite sex? It's bullshit that doesn't change a fantasy into reality.

Sorry, but no. You can dress how you like. But why should anyone else pay for harming anyone physically (and the cost of trying to put the surgery right). Why should they have to put up with the fantasy role play? Why should they be second class to someone else's unwillingness to accept reality.

The answer is no. No we don't consent to this. And that should be the end of that.

BCCoach · 11/08/2023 09:22

@Pallisers Switzer was the first woman to unofficially run the Boston marathon but somehow this has (in Americans’ minds anyway) been translated into being the first woman to run any marathon. Women were competing in marathons in Europe from the early 20th century: Violet Piercey ran a 3:20-something at the London Marathon in 1926, a record which stayed for many years.

DumDeeDoh · 11/08/2023 09:29

Just picking up a point earlier where it says that men are more likely to be a victim of violence. Thus is true BUT it is violence FROM MEN, so again nothing to do with women. Not our problem to solve.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 09:30

Soontobe60 · 11/08/2023 08:52

Totally agree.
we need to start at the very bottom rung of sports. That’s where children can show any possible potential in competitive sports. How can someone be talent spotted for, say, football if she won’t even play the game because she has to play alongside boys?

Agree.

plus boys and girls have different growth trajectories from birth (hence two different charts) so girls should be able to have their own teams and categories way before puberty

(wherever it’s practically possible, I realise is some tiny rural schools kids will have to play mixed, but even then they can still find ways to recognise girl athletes on their own merits - top scorer girls and top scorer boys, male player of the match and female player of the match etc)

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 09:33

DumDeeDoh · 11/08/2023 09:29

Just picking up a point earlier where it says that men are more likely to be a victim of violence. Thus is true BUT it is violence FROM MEN, so again nothing to do with women. Not our problem to solve.

And we shouldn’t be expected to become human shields for GNC men when other men are the actual problem, not women.

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:38

Moonberri · 10/08/2023 22:07

But what does "living as a woman" mean when you're a man?

Too much make up and swishy hair.

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:43

gleeclubforever · 10/08/2023 22:18

I'm not really sure why I'm defending myself because I'm very comfortable to be considered a terf and GC because I am, and this is really going off topic.
But are you honestly saying you see no difference between someone like Laverne Cox and the person in Scotland in the women's prison.
Laverne Cox doesn't sometimes present as male, she has lived for years as a woman to me she does not present as someone with a fetish or with seething misogyny issues and so I feel more comfortable accepting her.
Right or wrong that's just my truth.

They're both men and neither of them pass,Laverne just has a slightly better disguise.

Luizaa · 11/08/2023 09:48

Why should GC individuals have to explain what trans people should do?
I will be upfront I was born male but identify as female. That does not mean I can become a woman, it just means that I can have boyfriends who treat me as a feminine partner. The problem is that the trans debate has become all about taking rights from women and then expecting them to comply, because that is the misogynists view of women.

Luizaa · 11/08/2023 09:55

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:43

They're both men and neither of them pass,Laverne just has a slightly better disguise.

Quite agree, I noticed that a body of a Bronze age warrior had been dug up. The body was assumed to be male because it was almost non existent apart from the teeth. They ground down the teeth and found that they were XX.
Think about how profound that is?
Laverne can be whatever they want, dress as they want, I know from personal experience that there are lots of men out there who like a feminine soul.
The one thing she is not and never can be is a woman.

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 09:55

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:43

They're both men and neither of them pass,Laverne just has a slightly better disguise.

Cox is homosexual which makes Cox a lot less likely (in criminology & statistics terms) to be using women’s spaces for voyeuristic reasons.

But opening the door to Cox also opens the door to Isla Bryson, which is why the boundary line for single sex spaces has to be drawn at biological sex, not at ‘females plus some special males’.

I reckon Cox could actually beat Bryson in a fight but no way could Page fight off either of the males.

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:58

NicolaSturgeonsSOGIbottom · 11/08/2023 09:55

Cox is homosexual which makes Cox a lot less likely (in criminology & statistics terms) to be using women’s spaces for voyeuristic reasons.

But opening the door to Cox also opens the door to Isla Bryson, which is why the boundary line for single sex spaces has to be drawn at biological sex, not at ‘females plus some special males’.

I reckon Cox could actually beat Bryson in a fight but no way could Page fight off either of the males.

I doubt poor wee Eliot could fight off a dead dog.

ArabeIIaScott · 11/08/2023 10:04

'Laverne Cox doesn't sometimes present as male, she has lived for years as a woman to me she does not present as someone with a fetish or with seething misogyny issues'

How does 'living as a woman' work? Wearing your hair long? Using make up?

And fetishes are not generally visible. Nor is misogyny.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2023 10:06

WickedSerious · 11/08/2023 09:43

They're both men and neither of them pass,Laverne just has a slightly better disguise.

Cox declares themselves as a feminist yet resolutely denies they have experienced male privilege. The incongruous nature of that statement shows me that Cox has no fucking idea and is certainly not a feminist.

Can anyone name one female actor who came onto the scene at the same time Cox did and could have ever won acclaim and roles presenting as a man? Anyone? Would that female be touted as ‘the most (substitute ‘beautiful’ for a male equivalent) man in the world’? I doubt it.

Cox has ridden on male privilege all along. Not to be confused with the oppression that Cox experienced as a gay male who was feminine in presentation which I have no doubt Cox experienced. But still male privilege.

No. Just no. Cox is a male just as any other male person on this planet.

Are we supposed to reward Cox because they are not calling for women who disagree with Cox ‘Nazis’? Are we supposed to reward them with acceptance in some way into womanhood?

vibecheck · 11/08/2023 10:08

I know a trans man, I work with him and he’s become a close friend. He looks more “manly” (whatever that means) than most biologically born men that I know - he has a big beard, is built like a man with men’s muscles and a six pack, his jawline puts my husband’s to shame. He’s been transitioned for a long time and so on testosterone for a long time. As he said to me the other day - GC feminists want him to use the women’s bathroom? And women’s changing rooms? Most of you would hit the roof if you were washing your hands and he appeared out of a toilet cubicle.