If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

I am sorry, can you explain this. You were born male but identify as female? Or do you mean as feminine?

Have you read the full thread, @vibecheck? Outlying cases like this were addressed earlier. Not everyone may have agreed on the proposals, but it was far from “[All] GC feminists want…”

What we want, above all, is to be listened to, read, not misrepresented, demonised or ridiculed.

@RavingStone 💐

As he said to me the other day - GC feminists want him to use the women’s bathroom?

All these English people and their "bathrooms".

It's true, we probably wouldn't be happy if we saw someone who looked like a man in the women's toilets. But you know what? That's their problem, not ours. If your friend, who is a woman, has decided to make herself look like a man, then she has to deal with the consequences.

Fortunately, I don't really care if your friend uses the men's toilets, changing rooms or whatever. My concern as a feminist is to stop biological men using women's spaces.

And if your female friend with a beard were to be convicted of a crime would you want this friend to locked in a cell with a male?

and if ’he’ were to become pregnant would you want ’him’ to be denied maternity care on the basis of ’his’ male gender identity?

and would you want your friend to die from cervical cancer because ‘his’ male marker on ‘his’ medical records meant ‘he’ wasn’t properly screened and didn’t get an early enough diagnosis to survive?

I don’t want transmen to be harmed by gender ideology-do you? Because calling your friend male, and treating her as male, is putting her at risk of all sorts of unintended consequence.

They are who they are, males who feel better presenting as women. Transwomen.

The solution to practical arrangments is third, 'gender neutral' spaces, services and categories. That way everyone gets their dignity and comfort needs met.

There's loads of yanks on here.

A gender neutral toilet and an open sporting category are the obvious solutions.

How one feels has nothing to do with the reality of sex in certain types of situation.

This is always a false argument. I would be surprised if your friend also doesn’t completely understand that it is ‘male cues’ that come from either male genes or testosterone treatment in female that is the issue.

Most transitioned females who drop by on Mn FWR tell us that do fully understand the issue and they understand that they took actions to modify their bodies to replicate those male cues and would and do find alternative toilets. Some didn’t even use male toilets as transitioned females.

Why do people present that argument while believing they are ‘kind’ people? Why the fuck do people weaponise women and childen’s trauma against them in this way?

Who the fuck thinks ‘Well if those women want to exclude males from toilets they are going to have testosterone modified female people complete with beards in their spaces! That will teach them for wanting female only single sex spaces!’ is ‘kind’ and morally superior and on the right side of history?

Seriously WTAF?

Narcissists, Helle!

I'm not really seeing any kind of gotcha there. as with sports etc there should be two categories, namely women's (only bio women welcome) and open (all welcome). literally every regular poster on this board believes this.

I want to not have to engage in the delusion that one of these; XY, becomes one of these ;XX, because of a feeling. I might feel that I'm the Queen of Sheba but in reality I'm not.
I want to be able to use facilities which are only for these XX, I want sports to be segregated on the same basis.
I want people to stop saying TWAW as a mantra because they aren't. See above.
I want people to acknowledge biological reality.
I want people to realize we, none of us, get everything we want;because we compromise.
People can wear what they want, modify their body how they want, but I don't have to go along with the delusion.
I will be polite if the other side is. If I'm left alone and don't have to pretend , I'm fine.
Live your best life, don't intrude, we will all be happy.
Oh, and stop issuing violence to 'TERFS'.
,

There's loads of yanks on here.

I know, but a lot of British people often recite the same by the numbers crap about "bathrooms" that they get from American trans activists. "Changing rooms" is a British expression so it's jarring. Just a throwaway observation.

Ask him what he thinks 'morning wood' is? No it is not a classical baroque piece.
'He' does not have a scooby about having a penis, the average ratio of shoulders to hips for a man is 1.18 to 1 for a woman it is 1.03 to 1.
Be serious does he actually pass as a man?

I don't believe the female people who identify as men have any more clue about being a man than the male people who identify as women do about being a woman. However, they impose on the opposite sex much less.

Sorry I meant feminine, apologies for any perceived appropriation.

Precisely, it is a personal perception which is fine but once an attempt is made to project onto diminishing others rights is completely unacceptable.

I would like child safeguarding to be prioritised above feelings and identity issues.

I only want to hear the phrase "most marginalised" again if it's in reference to people like the girls of Afghanistan, the Uighur Muslims of China or the destitute of Somalia.

I think trans people should feel safe and able to be whoever they want to be.

However that doesn't extend to using female only spaces because biologically they are not female.

I know that may feel unfair but that's life. Sometimes we have to live with less than ideal circumstances. I don't find it fair, for example, that as a woman if I wanted a biological child, I would have to live through pregnancy and labour. I would love to be able to be like a man and have a child that is biologically mine without any physical consequences. Unfortunately our biology means we must live with some injustices.

You could well be right?

That poster may only be telling us part of the story though. Or, that female individual has adopted a fully misogynistic approach to life.

Either way, I don’t believe people posting that opinion as a ‘gotcha’ understand with any depth the basis of females wanting their single sex spaces, or they have seen it used so often on social media that they fail to use any critical thinking about how it doesn’t work. That how when it is viewed in the full picture of women and children needing single sex spaces to cope with trauma and for privacy and dignity, it shows just how fucked up lacking in empathy and how narcissist it makes some trans people and their allies look. Ie. Those deploying this as some sick fucked up ‘gotcha’.

RTFT.

HTH.

Either way, I don’t believe people posting that opinion as a ‘gotcha’ understand with any depth the basis of females wanting their single sex spaces, or they have seen it used so often on social media that they fail to use any critical thinking about how it doesn’t work. That how when it is viewed in the full picture of women and children needing single sex spaces to cope with trauma and for privacy and dignity, it shows just how fucked up lacking in empathy and how narcissist it makes some trans people and their allies look. Ie. Those deploying this as some sick fucked up ‘gotcha’.

This.

Just checking the logic. Thanks for clarifying.

We know there we male people with trans identities who have claimed ‘female’ as their sex category but it didn’t sound consistent with what you were posting. So thanks for clarifying.