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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transman loses baby during hysterectomy

317 replies

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 09/08/2023 09:44

Transgender patient loses unborn baby while undergoing hysterectomy while four months pregnant https://mol.im/a/12387829

This article is horrifying.
In my experience women are always given pregnancy tests before surgery, what the hell happened here?

Female-to-male patient loses unborn baby while undergoing hysterectomy

Jesse Pohlner, 38, was four months pregnant when he underwent a full hysterectomy at Royal Women's Hospital in Melbourne during lockdown in 2021.

https://mol.im/a/12387829

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 09/08/2023 11:48

everyone is blaming her and distinctly lacking in sympathy.

This is nonsense. The thread is a mixture of views. Not everyone is blaming the patient. I am not. The hospital should not use a questionnaire that can be swayed by trans medicine or self-perception or interpretation from a nurse (bearing in mind Victoria is completely captured and it would not surprise me if a young nurse didn’t actually understand what they were dealing with). It’s entirely the hospital’s fault.

Willyoujustbequiet · 09/08/2023 11:50

Flickersy · 09/08/2023 09:58

So it happened in lockdown, when consultations etc were done remotely and healthcare services were generally under pressure.

The surgery was rushed and booked in for only 10 days after the consultation.

The patient was assured a pregnancy test would be done but this didn't happen.

They were asked a series of questions to determine if pregnancy was a possibility, but still no test was done.

I don't think this has anything to do with the patients trans status, I think this is a hospital cock-up.

Why didn't they do a pregnancy test themselves?

Where is the personal responsibility in this?

And the fact the vast majority of women would be aware they are pregnant by 4 months.

Clymene · 09/08/2023 11:50

It's clear that it wasn't standard practice.

In an email from the hospital, Mr Pohlner was told that depending on his last period or if he was sexually active that he may require a pregnancy test.

'May'.

The night before the operation, a nurse used a chart to ask him a series of yes and no questions that ultimately ruled a pregnancy test wasn't required.

So Pohlner's responses determined that no test was performed.

It's a really stupid process

Superfood · 09/08/2023 11:51

LlamaFace19 · 09/08/2023 11:45

@Superfood would you say the same to any woman who underwent a hysterectomy? Or indeed any elective surgery?

I think that there are many, many surgeries performed unethically by medics who are bad people with bad motivations. Huge numbers. "Gender affirming" [sic] surgeries are just one of many, many procedures where it is taken as read that the entire procedure is unethical, and therefore I'm totally unsurprised when other basic safety and care falls down.

E.g. the number of women who die after "routine" [sic] tummy tucks or "butt lifts", or have horrible side effects like Linda Evangelista and that grotesque fat freezing thing.

So yeah - I think any doctors etc who are prepared to carry out dangerous surgery with no medical reason are inherently unethical and incompetent. And I would advise any woman I cared about to run far far away.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 09/08/2023 11:56

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 09:46

"he" was obviously "she" in bed then, wasn't she? And how would she NOT KNOW pregnancy was a possibility after sex?

According to the story, she did request a pregnancy test but the hospital determined it was unnecessary based on her answers. So maybe she lied about her sexual activity or menstruation.
Testing isn't automatic here either. I can confirm this from my own experience. They trust your answers. Maybe they shouldn't.

Datun · 09/08/2023 11:57

DisquietintheRanks · 09/08/2023 11:21

Don't be ridiculous. Any medical professional that doesn't understand that a hysterectomy means the removal of a uterus, or that the presence of a uterus signals the possibility of a pregnancy needs sacking. This is one case where pronouns, feelings, identification and even legal recognition make no difference.

Which is why I speculated that they didn't know what the operation was.

Their policy to base a pregnancy test on a questionnaire is clearly not a 100% fail safe. The nurse was sure enough to not do one though.

I agree, she could just be really, really bad at her job

Sprogonthetyne · 09/08/2023 11:57

At the end of the day it's procedural errors on the hospitals end, possibly exacerbated by the standard processes not being designed with trans patients in mind. That doesn't make it the patients fault, or necessary the nurse asking the questions, depending on what the set questions were and answers given. It means the process needs to be re-examined to remove the possibly of future failings.

First errors was clearly relying on a questionnaire at all and not just testing everyone. It appears that has now rightly been changed.

Other possible issues (though just speculation)

Did the nurse know what surgery the patent was having, or was their role that day just to ask the questions to everyone having any surgery? If the latter, then they may not have realised the patient was female. That would be an procedural error of not having sex clearly noted, and could have been avoided by having more constant care givers or informed handovers.

Were the question ambitious if viewed through the lense of gender woo? Eg. "Have you had intercourse with someone of the opposite sex?". If the patent truly believes they are now a man, they may view their relationship as same sex, so answers a question like that incorrectly. While that could be avoided be the patent applying their own logic, hospitals have to deal with patients who are uninformed, have mental health issues, have strange (to me) beliefs or are just not that bright, so have a responsibility to make their systems robust enough to catch things like that. It should never depend on any patient having/applying their own sense.

viques · 09/08/2023 11:59

Datun · 09/08/2023 10:30

Transmen can pass far more than transwomen.

I wonder if the nurse wasn't aware of what surgery was about to happen, and genuinely thought she was talking to a man.

“I wonder if the nurse genuinely thought she was talking to a man.”

In that case I wonder what surgery the nurse thought a man was going to have in the Women’s Hospital!

The hospital clearly has to tighten up its procedures, and train its staff better , but I think the woman involved is also partially responsible, if you have unprotected piv sex with a man and have other possible pregnancy symptoms such as sickness then you need to take responsibility for your own health , which means being aware of what sex you are and how that affects your reproductive health.

Anewuser · 09/08/2023 12:00

LlamaFace19 · Today 11:43
Clearly some did not read the article. The patient was assured a pregnancy test would be done, and it wasn't. This is a mess up on the hospitals' part.

The responses are interesting. If this had happened to a women who identified as their biological sex there would be nothing but sympathy. But because the patient was trans, everyone is blaming her and distinctly lacking in sympathy. Sad. You can not necessarily agree that you can change your sex (as I don't think you can) but still have sympathy for them.

As Ricky Gervais would say, “Everyone is blaming HIM.”

SoundTheSirens · 09/08/2023 12:01

NotBadConsidering · 09/08/2023 11:48

everyone is blaming her and distinctly lacking in sympathy.

This is nonsense. The thread is a mixture of views. Not everyone is blaming the patient. I am not. The hospital should not use a questionnaire that can be swayed by trans medicine or self-perception or interpretation from a nurse (bearing in mind Victoria is completely captured and it would not surprise me if a young nurse didn’t actually understand what they were dealing with). It’s entirely the hospital’s fault.

Agree with this entirely.

I haven't RTFT so apologies if anyone has already mentioned it, but this has happened more than once in UK hospitals to women (not transmen). It seems such a simple thing to make pregnancy tests before hysterectomies mandatory in hospitals.

Mouse82 · 09/08/2023 12:05

FrancescaContini · 09/08/2023 09:54

This is grotesque for so many reasons. Why wasn’t a pregnancy test taken as a matter of course?

I agree.
I had to have a pelvic MRI earlier this year and before they would proceed I had to take a pregnancy test despite not being sexually active for over 2 years and telling them this. They couldn't proceed until that was done.

Fireroselily · 09/08/2023 12:06

I feel like the hospital was trying to be PC due to patients trans status. Surely if he is biologically female and identified as a woman then they would have insisted, I've always had to have a pre op test even if the answers to my questions mean there is zero chance of being pregnanct, but maybe because he is trans they didn't want to cause offence by insisting?

BitchBrigade · 09/08/2023 12:08

They really will just hand out surgeries to anyone crying about being Trans won't they? Maybe I should claim i'm trans top get my own hysterectomy, maybe they will throw in a tummy tuck seeing as my c-section flap is a women-only feature.

Meanwhile my sister has a genuine medical need to have a hysterectomy which would likely solve ALL of her health issues and they flat out refuse while wasting time fannying about trying a million other things that simply won't work or have horrendous side effects even the menopause has nothing on.

ASGIRC · 09/08/2023 12:12

Nevermay · 09/08/2023 11:47

sure, but they still know it is a possibility, and don't go charging in for hysterectomies without checking

You have no idea what was going on in this persons life.
This is not their fault. It is the hospitals. For failure of care. They PROMISSED a pregnacy test!!!!

Clymene · 09/08/2023 12:16

No, they weren't assured. They were told the hospital may give them a test. It's right there in the article.

oakleaffy · 09/08/2023 12:17

Absolute insanity.
It's a biological woman.

Why the heck wasn't the patient given a pregnancy test before having surgery?

It was at a women's hospital, men can't have hysterectomies?

What a gruesome story.

FrivolousTreeDuck · 09/08/2023 12:18

I wasn't given a pregnancy test before my hysterectomy - they asked when my last period was and I assume my answer deemed it unnecessary. Given the problems I was having, sex was completely off the cards so I knew personally there was 0 chance of my being pregnant.

AppleDumplingWithCustard · 09/08/2023 12:19

I would have thought it obvious to any surgeon that there was a 16 week uterus present as soon as the abdomen was opened.

Coffeewithoatmilk · 09/08/2023 12:21

Ok hospital messed up with the pregnancy tests but surely if you are a biological female who obviously had unprotected sex with a man and after that you started to have some kind of symptoms surely you would buy a pregnancy test yourself to check if you are not pregnant just in case. Specially if you have any other children, you should be aware how things work right?

TerfTalking · 09/08/2023 12:22

And there will be more health disasters yet to come with this fucked up ideology and captured healthcare providers.

DisquietintheRanks · 09/08/2023 12:22

AppleDumplingWithCustard · 09/08/2023 12:19

I would have thought it obvious to any surgeon that there was a 16 week uterus present as soon as the abdomen was opened.

Why? Does a pregnant uterus look superficially different than, say, a uterus full of fibroid?

This is a genuine question btw

AppleDumplingWithCustard · 09/08/2023 12:25

DisquietintheRanks · 09/08/2023 12:22

Why? Does a pregnant uterus look superficially different than, say, a uterus full of fibroid?

This is a genuine question btw

Either way the uterus would look enlarged indicating that there was something in there. So it should have registered that it could be a pregnancy.

Dinopawus · 09/08/2023 12:27

I don't disagree that it is better practice to test for pregnancy rather than using a screening questionnaire. Patients have various reasons for giving inaccurate answers to questions and HCP should understand this.

In the UK, sex change surgery is usually carried out by a small number of specialist centres. I don't know how the process works in Australia.

Does anyone know if pregnancy tests are routinely done before female to male surgery in the UK? I can't help feeling that referring to the surgery as a hysterectomy is more loaded than calling it an elective sex change procedure.

And I can also imagine there could be pushback from some campaigners if a pregnancy test was a prerequisite for a sex change.

TallulahBetty · 09/08/2023 12:29

MeinKraft · 09/08/2023 11:30

Enough is enough now, the NHS really needs to start protecting patients and medical staff by sorting their shit out.

Agreed, except this wasn't on the NHS

Flickersy · 09/08/2023 12:32

Dinopawus · 09/08/2023 12:27

I don't disagree that it is better practice to test for pregnancy rather than using a screening questionnaire. Patients have various reasons for giving inaccurate answers to questions and HCP should understand this.

In the UK, sex change surgery is usually carried out by a small number of specialist centres. I don't know how the process works in Australia.

Does anyone know if pregnancy tests are routinely done before female to male surgery in the UK? I can't help feeling that referring to the surgery as a hysterectomy is more loaded than calling it an elective sex change procedure.

And I can also imagine there could be pushback from some campaigners if a pregnancy test was a prerequisite for a sex change.

This wasn't a sex change procedure. A hysterectomy is not a sex change operation.