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Women's rights general conversations - Thread 6

997 replies

Kucinghitam · 31/07/2023 04:25

Continuation of Thread 5.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions in the supermarket, grr"- that sort of thing).

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5 | Mumsnet

Continuation of [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4759300-womens-rights-general-conversations-thread-4? Thread 4]]. There is so much excel...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4807817-womens-rights-general-conversations-thread-5?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
141
Woman2023 · 12/08/2023 08:33

Boiledbeetle · 11/08/2023 11:33

A person who has listened to hours of you discussing something that deeply interests them, only then to hear you say something with which they disagree, may feel it like a gut punch. But you aren’t actually their friend, and they can’t sit you down with you to hash it out.

I can't have been the only one reading that knowing that I could happily sit Helen in the corner of my room and just have her talk at me for hours on reading the bit 'but you aren't actually their friend' felt like I'd been punched in the gut? 😏😁

😁 I'm gutted she doesn't realise we're friends. Peter Boghossian makes me laugh in interviews because he seems to describe everyone he's interviewed as a friend (or good friend or close friend). Two highlights of his talk with Kathleen Stock were his amazement that she hadn't met Helen on this tiny island, and him making her laugh by describing his experience of spending time with Lawrence Fox.

Woman2023 · 12/08/2023 08:35

Kucinghitam · 12/08/2023 07:56

petulant staff members

But they identify as brave and stunning warriors on The Right Side of History.

I do wonder how many of them have got that niggling feeling of "have I actually got this right?"

SinnerBoy · 12/08/2023 15:48

Waitwhat23 · Today 06:48

Joanna Cherry's event at the Stand disrupted by petulant staff members...

Technical hitch, my armpit! It seems to have gone off flawlessly, as planned.

Tallisker · 12/08/2023 23:46

Another bit of proof that transwomen aren't women - women are good at football 🤣🤣

IcakethereforeIam · 13/08/2023 12:17

From that 2nd article linked by @SqueakyDinosaur

But let’s follow this argument all the way through. Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring.

Imagine the despair of a female child seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be just bloody typical.

He really doesn't see women at all does he?

duc748 · 13/08/2023 12:25

Heh! Was just going to highlight the passage. Would that be bad, indeed. What a pillock that bloke is.

duc748 · 13/08/2023 12:30

Actually, thinking about it, it's not just the witless prejudice, it's the basic misunderstanding of the facts. He is supposed to be a sports expert. Is he not aware of the well-known facts that the top women's football teams can be defeated by a team of good high-school boys, and so on? He seems to imply that the 'floodgates' wouldn't in fact open. But all the evidence shows that yes, of course, they would.

BellaAmorosa · 13/08/2023 13:08

He is supposed to be a sports expert. Is he not aware of the well-known facts that the top women's football teams can be defeated by a team of good high-school boys, and so on?

I have to give that some context. The best women's club sides in the world (and some national sides), as part of pre- or mid-season training, often play behind-closed-doors games against club academy teams of U15s - not just random 15-year-olds. (I know you didn't mean that, duc748, this is for lurkers.) The reason for this is to give the women a physical and mental test beyond what any women's team can offer.

Typically, the women's team will lose, sometimes heavily - the first time. They play them again, sometimes twice more, and then they win. They win because they have got accustomed to the increased speed of players and their passing of the ball, the greater upper body strength when in a tussle for possession, their higher leaps, faster reactions. They have learnt how to compensate for the physical disadvantage and use their experience and more sophisticated "football intelligence" to out-think the stronger and quicker boys.
As soon as they can beat them comfortably, they move on to playing the U16s. Then U17s. Same process - lose the first time, maybe first couple of times, then win. Sometimes they keep going to U18 level, but never higher because there is no point. By that age, the boys have sufficient non-physical attributes to make it impossible for the women to compensate. And there is a safety question of course.

What the boys get out of this is the chance to learn about the game and matchplay in a practical setting, from players who are far more savvy than the boys' peers in the academy leagues, who are totally professional in attitude and proven winners. Even at U18 level at a top club, the majority of the youths will not even make it to a high level. The women they are playing against already have reached the pinnacle of their sport. The boys cannot get this sort of experience by playing against elite men's teams because it would be unsafe (for U15s/U16s) and they would be totally outclassed and learn nothing.

And as a bonus they learn to respect women!

Waitwhat23 · 13/08/2023 13:55

Lesbian speed dating event organiser reported to her employer for organising lesbian events which do not include straight men -

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12401009/Lesbian-speed-dating-event-sparks-transphobia-row-organisers-insist-adult-human-females-attend-popular-weekly-event.html

Waitwhat23 · 13/08/2023 13:56

Ah, just seen that there is already a thread on it.

MavisMcMinty · 13/08/2023 19:47

BellaAmorosa · 13/08/2023 13:08

He is supposed to be a sports expert. Is he not aware of the well-known facts that the top women's football teams can be defeated by a team of good high-school boys, and so on?

I have to give that some context. The best women's club sides in the world (and some national sides), as part of pre- or mid-season training, often play behind-closed-doors games against club academy teams of U15s - not just random 15-year-olds. (I know you didn't mean that, duc748, this is for lurkers.) The reason for this is to give the women a physical and mental test beyond what any women's team can offer.

Typically, the women's team will lose, sometimes heavily - the first time. They play them again, sometimes twice more, and then they win. They win because they have got accustomed to the increased speed of players and their passing of the ball, the greater upper body strength when in a tussle for possession, their higher leaps, faster reactions. They have learnt how to compensate for the physical disadvantage and use their experience and more sophisticated "football intelligence" to out-think the stronger and quicker boys.
As soon as they can beat them comfortably, they move on to playing the U16s. Then U17s. Same process - lose the first time, maybe first couple of times, then win. Sometimes they keep going to U18 level, but never higher because there is no point. By that age, the boys have sufficient non-physical attributes to make it impossible for the women to compensate. And there is a safety question of course.

What the boys get out of this is the chance to learn about the game and matchplay in a practical setting, from players who are far more savvy than the boys' peers in the academy leagues, who are totally professional in attitude and proven winners. Even at U18 level at a top club, the majority of the youths will not even make it to a high level. The women they are playing against already have reached the pinnacle of their sport. The boys cannot get this sort of experience by playing against elite men's teams because it would be unsafe (for U15s/U16s) and they would be totally outclassed and learn nothing.

And as a bonus they learn to respect women!

That’s so interesting, thanks!

nepeta · 13/08/2023 20:58

IcakethereforeIam · 13/08/2023 12:17

From that 2nd article linked by @SqueakyDinosaur

But let’s follow this argument all the way through. Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring.

Imagine the despair of a female child seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be just bloody typical.

He really doesn't see women at all does he?

I remember that one! Turned my TERF dial up by several degrees.

turbonerd · 13/08/2023 21:02

MouseMinge · 31/07/2023 13:25

An eighty-odd year old probably thinks a pansexual is someone who is turned on by kitchen cooking appliances, ffs. They really don't need to have this made up bollocks foisted upon them.

I love this.
Pan-Sexual.

My life is complete.
Back to lurking.

Gonners · 13/08/2023 21:18

I just asked my resident 81-year-old what he thought pansexual meant. He laughed and said that given that we already have hetero-, homo- and bi-, presumably it would include bestiality, including fish, and perhaps necrophilia.

MavisMcMinty · 13/08/2023 21:40

In the hope that my bank balance is robust enough, I’ve just ordered Trans, Hags, Material Girls and Unfair Play! Feeling guilty because I haven’t been able to get into Abolish the Monarchy, but if I keep it in my glovebox I’ll have something to do if my car breaks down or I get held up on the motorway all night in a blizzard. The latter is something I’m so prepared for that I’m almost sorry it hasn't (yet) happened.

MouseMinge · 13/08/2023 22:41

That Observer article is promising but also really depressing. All these women having to meet in secret and keep secrets lest they be "cancelled" by their own party (unless they're a Conservative). It's an absolutely shocking state of affairs. It also makes it clear that this is very much a war against women because if it wasn't then secret meetings and groups wouldn't be necessary.

MouseMinge · 14/08/2023 13:21

Glorious!

bignosebignose · 14/08/2023 14:22

That post about footer teams was indeed veh interesting. This made me smile:

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 6
MavisMcMinty · 14/08/2023 16:31

My 4 books have arrived!

I may be some time.

mach2 · 14/08/2023 18:37

bignosebignose · 14/08/2023 14:22

That post about footer teams was indeed veh interesting. This made me smile:

🤣🤣🤣

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2023 19:32

Some totally not unhinged at all responses to that Observer article by the (mostly) men of the LabourUK subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/15qq2jd/ittookkfemalempssfrombothhpartiestoochange/?utmsource=share&utmmmedium=iosapp&utmmname=ioscss&utmcontent=1&utmm_term=1

Snowypeaks · 14/08/2023 19:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/08/2023 19:32

Some totally not unhinged at all responses to that Observer article by the (mostly) men of the LabourUK subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/15qq2jd/ittookkfemalempssfrombothhpartiestoochange/?utmsource=share&utmmmedium=iosapp&utmmname=ioscss&utmcontent=1&utmm_term=1

I don't think I can bear to read that!