Barbra Banda

[Jezzz]

Does anyone have any information about the actual sex of this person?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12282149/amp/Zambia-striker-told-play-Womens-World-Cup-despite-failing-gender-eligibility-test.html

If Japan can pull off a win, I have confidence Spain will finish them off next.

What a pity. I was hoping Zambia would win and then all the woke US players would have to discuss the fairness of BB’s participation .

@MattDamon
yes, the legislation doesn’t preclude FIFA setting rules that include males in women’s games, but neither does it require it.

what’s interesting is that Sport Australia tends to require inclusion of males in order to receive funding from them. True female-only sport is allowed but codes seem to think it isn’t. Thus, Riley Dennis injuring female players and anyone who complains gets offered reeducation, and AFL had to come up with some euphemistic rules about height and weight to stop Hannah Mouncey playing AFLW. When they could legally just say, this is a female only sport and we don’t have to include you.

FIFA must be mightily relieved

5-0. Well done, Japan, showing the cheats up.

Indeed. But cue the gender supremacists saying “see? Zambia lost so there is no problem including males in women’s sports, no problem at all!” Every loss will be treated as proof that there is no advantage.

Just to muddy the waters, and perhaps why the BBC try not to give opinion, is the additional racial/racist element being woven into the narrative of the suppression of DSD athletes by the controlling Western post colonial nations, in requiring these athletes to fit into norms fixed by these very nations. It's a minefield

Does football have a DSD problem? Just watched another match and I have my suspicions about another player. Until these sport regularly sex test again, there will always be unscrupulous coaches looking to exploit the situation

Sport in general has a DSD problem. Males are allowed to compete in women's sports by several of the sports governing bodies, who presumably don't think it matters whether women's sport is fair or not, or don't consider males with a DSD to be proper men, ergo they might as well be women. And of course they must think we are stupid. The pretence is kept up that these individuals are women with an unfortunate medical condition. There is a sort of omerta amongst the press about the truth. Instead, we are gaslighted about this being a race issue in the case of Banda and co when it is not - it's about the integrity of the female category in sport and the theft of opportunities, accolades and prize money from women athletes.

I found out about this situation via the Caster Semenya story a couple of years ago and I have learnt to trust my eyes and my gut instinct - so I too have my suspicions about a few other players - one or two from European countries. (Not just from this competition.)

When they trying playing the "racism" and "suppression of DSD athletes by the controlling post colonial nations" cards they need reminding that:

"the the Zambian federation withdrew her from her last major tournament, the 2022 Women’s Africa Cup of Nations (WAFCON), before she could undergo a gender test.

It has been reported that Banda was excluded from last year’s competition, which served as Zambia’s World Cup qualifier, because she failed gender testing procedures. However, Telegraph Sport has established that Banda never underwent the test, with the Confederation of African Football (CAF) disclosing that the Zambians chose instead to leave her out.

“I can confirm that there was never a test conducted by CAF on Banda,” the organisation said in a statement. “We do not know the reason why she was not included in the squad or registered.”

Zambia acknowledged that they had been made aware, after Banda’s star turn at the Olympics, that her abnormally high testosterone levels were in excess of CAF’s permitted levels and that a course of hormone suppression had been offered to the striker.

But Banda, along with at least two other players – including Racheal Kundananji, also in the training camp in New Zealand – is said to have refused to take any suppressants, fearing potential side-effects. Sydney Mungala, the team’s spokesman, said last year that Banda was “surprised” to have been omitted from the squad list, despite being aware of the testing situation."

"The mystery of the Women’s World Cup player and the gender test that never happened"
Zambia's Barbra Banda was withdrawn from last year's Africa Cup of Nations before being tested but has now been deemed eligible by Fifa

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/07/20/barbra-banda-womens-world-cup-zambia-gender-test/

Archived in the usual places if it goes behind a paywall.

Next match is against Spain on Wednesday.

Zambia v Spain will be interesting as Real Madrid pulled out of signing BB and BB had to leave Europe for China.
The Spanish know exactly who BB is but after that performance against Japan they're probably not too worried.

Equally Spain have had their problems. A number of players protested about the (male) management appointed the Spanish FA and the lack of support. (In direct comparison with the very supportive approach shown to developing the women's game, particularly at Camp Nou.)

Spain should be the hot favourites. Because of the issues, and the fact that the national FA would not back down, they are not.

Yes all the money and support seems to be within the clubs.

Spain looked very strong though imo

Without wishing to get into pointless speculation, I googled the "Racheal Kundananji" mentioned here as refusing to take suppressants, looks to me as female as can be, albeit possibly not gender conforming.

Real Madrid must have had a heads up for them to pull out of the transfer.

I have no knowledge of Kindananji's exact situation but as a general point, CAIS males have an apparently female phenotype but have internal testes which produce normal amounts of testosterone for the male range. They are taller and stronger on average than women, though not as dramatically so as men. And of course they do not have periods. That they retain male advantage is evidenced by the fact that they were found to be disproportionately represented on athletics podiums in relation to their incidence in the population.

To fall under the testosterone restrictions, a player would have to be producing amounts of testosterone well above the female range.

Bluntly put, RK looks to me a lot like a woman, in a way that BB and certainly someone like Caster Semenya does not.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReZ59Q2h5S3LvuQ1PFcvFpvoafbfOPgyL8aw&usqp=CAU

I agree it's more subtle with RK. Yes, she looks more womanly overall, but she has a more manly structure, and body muscle type, than the women around her and that would be because she has had high testosterone levels all her life.

I'm not sure I follow. In the case of Caster Semenya's "high testosterone" is sometimes used as a euphemism for 'is a man in all respects other than external genitalia'. I suspected that the same is true of Ms Banda. But RK here appears to have breasts, something of a 'female'/heart-shaped face... I struggle to believe that she's another Semenya?

@puffyisgood

Once again, I don't know RK's and BB's situation, except for - 1) they have been offered and have refused the chance to compete under testosterone suppression requirements 2) the Zambian authorities withdrew RK, BB and two other players in the squad from sex testing before the women's AFCON last year. You may wonder why they took that step.

Caster Semenya has a condition called 46, XY 5-ARD which results in one type of DSD. There are several different male-specific DSDs and they all have different consequences for sexual development and the sufferer's appearance. Typically, a male with this condition goes through a normal male puberty but does not develop facial hair. (There are other consequences for primary sex characteristics which it isn't necessary to discuss here.)

As another example, males with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity) have an apparently female phenotype externally, and in some cases even have female-type adiposity. You would probably not know if you met a male like that socially or even in a swimming pool changing room. However, they are male and despite not being able to utilise androgens to fully develop all their male sex characteristics either in utero or at puberty, CAIS males produce testosterone from functioning internal testes in amounts which are normal for men. The testosterone level would be flagged up in the results of a sex test (DNA taken from the cells harvested by a cheek swab) and that would trigger the testosterone restrictions under which males with DSDs are allowed to play in women's football.

Again, I am speaking generally, I have no specific knowledge and make no claims about RK.

I am opposed to any males with DSDs competing in any women's events because they are not women. CAIS males are taller and stronger than women. All males, whatever their DSD, retain a significant level of male athletic performance advantage. None have the disadvantage of having periods. Fifa should not allow their participation.

right... I mean, I think under world athletics rules CAIS athletes, even though they are xy and so on, are allowed in the female category, right? such athletes would never be able to compete on an even footing with men, right! other than not being subject to periods menopause & so on they have similar characteristics to women... I might be somewhat sympathetic towards their inclusion in a female category...

@puffyisgood

Please don't minimise the effect of periods and menopause. There is a direct correlation in many sports between the number of hours an athlete trains with the results obtained. A male athlete can train every day in the same way if he wants to, female athletes have to tailor their training around their periods, because at certain points in their cycle they are more prone to injury or can take on greater loading than at other times. They may have to miss days because of endometriosis pain. They may have pregnancy scares or difficult decisions to make about abortion. They may choose to take medication to forgo periods for the sake of training or a big competition, but that can have health consequences, and not all women can tolerate hormonal interventions.
Also, women who have gone through menopause have their own health issues, though of course are less likely to still be competing seriously.

Why should any males be in the female category? The fact that CAIS males would not be able to compete with other males is not women's problem. It's just a sad fact of life - for them. Women cannot compete with CAIS males. What about the women who are bumped down a place, or won't get selected for the Olympics, or who will miss out on sponsorship? Males are excluded from female categories not just because they have a large athletic advantage over females, but also because the source of their advantage over women is the fact that they are male and the physiological consequences which flow from that. Females cannot match males athletically.

Males have an athletic performance advantage over females from birth and CAIS males are no exception. This was proven by the results in individual athletics events. Their bodies are male - just without fully developed sexual characteristics and the turbo boost of puberty. There are other categories of male, eg those with a disability, who are uncompetitive with other men, but they are not then put into the female category. Because they are male. Somehow because the differences are in development of sexual characteristics - irrelevant to athletic ability - some people consider both males with DSDs and women to be in a category of non-men. That is unfair to women and insulting to both groups. For CAIS males, a special competition category in the disability sphere might be warranted, but that would be up to them to decide and campaign for if they want it.

Having CAIS males in women's athletics could be said to have the same effect as the East German doping programme did. Women have had a hard enough time getting their sports off the ground - they didn't put all that effort in for the sake of male people, who are already well catered for. The lion's share of sponsorship and endorsements goes to men already, why should women have to share their tiny proportion with yet more males?

Were Lance Armstrong and Justin Gatlin unfairly sanctioned by their sports governing bodies? The doping didn't make them look too different to their competitors, so I suppose that was all ok?

I’m really uncomfortable that (as stated by a pp) we find ourselves guessing at the chromosomal sex of various sports people based on their appearance- due to the media omertà.

XY athletes should never be included in women’s sports because they are not women. No need for genital inspections or speculation - just a simple cheek swab. And then no need to speculate if a sportswoman does not have a stereotypical phenotype.

There will be very rare cases where an athlete who is phenotypically female will find out belatedly that they are chromosomally male. The emotional fallout might be difficult for them personally but is no reason to allow them to cheat as compensation. It might be fairer to include DSDs as a specific category or categories within para sports.

Women’s sports should be protected.