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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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21
imed · 25/07/2023 22:03

Report about BB on Sky News now.
Reporters banned from quizzing the manager apparently.

imed · 25/07/2023 22:07

Oh I think it's about allegations about the coach/manager not BB.

Dougalskeeper · 26/07/2023 07:19

If Barbra Banda has a male DSD like 5 ARD then he shouldn't be playing. Lack of external genitalia does not equal woman; males that failed to masculinize in utero are still not women. They are men without their tackle. If the suspicions are true then it's just ridiculous that this man is allowed to play

Abhannmor · 26/07/2023 07:55

There is a lovely supportive article about him in today's Guardian. No doubt has his problems and didn't have it easy. I wish him well but he shouldn't be playing against biological women.

If this continues you can envisage the rich and powerful nations importing players from places where DSDs are more common. They can play Club football for a few years and then be ' naturalised ' and picked for the international squad. If someone had an unfair advantage in the men's game the players would surely just go on strike.

imed · 26/07/2023 08:06

The Guardian hates women so I'm not at all surprised by a supportive article.
I hope Spain slaughter them this morning as this issue is spoiling my World Cup.
Go home cheats!
And btw the coach looks a piece of work.I hope justice is done if he's guilty of sexual abuse.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 08:26

ITV actually talking about it pre-game. Almost sounded like they were getting it... then ended with lavish praise for Banda. They did mention that FIFA are reviewing the current guidelines.

puffyisgood · 26/07/2023 08:31

KiteofUncertainty · 25/07/2023 17:44

@puffyisgood

Please don't minimise the effect of periods and menopause. There is a direct correlation in many sports between the number of hours an athlete trains with the results obtained. A male athlete can train every day in the same way if he wants to, female athletes have to tailor their training around their periods, because at certain points in their cycle they are more prone to injury or can take on greater loading than at other times. They may have to miss days because of endometriosis pain. They may have pregnancy scares or difficult decisions to make about abortion. They may choose to take medication to forgo periods for the sake of training or a big competition, but that can have health consequences, and not all women can tolerate hormonal interventions.
Also, women who have gone through menopause have their own health issues, though of course are less likely to still be competing seriously.

Why should any males be in the female category? The fact that CAIS males would not be able to compete with other males is not women's problem. It's just a sad fact of life - for them. Women cannot compete with CAIS males. What about the women who are bumped down a place, or won't get selected for the Olympics, or who will miss out on sponsorship? Males are excluded from female categories not just because they have a large athletic advantage over females, but also because the source of their advantage over women is the fact that they are male and the physiological consequences which flow from that. Females cannot match males athletically.

Males have an athletic performance advantage over females from birth and CAIS males are no exception. This was proven by the results in individual athletics events. Their bodies are male - just without fully developed sexual characteristics and the turbo boost of puberty. There are other categories of male, eg those with a disability, who are uncompetitive with other men, but they are not then put into the female category. Because they are male. Somehow because the differences are in development of sexual characteristics - irrelevant to athletic ability - some people consider both males with DSDs and women to be in a category of non-men. That is unfair to women and insulting to both groups. For CAIS males, a special competition category in the disability sphere might be warranted, but that would be up to them to decide and campaign for if they want it.

Having CAIS males in women's athletics could be said to have the same effect as the East German doping programme did. Women have had a hard enough time getting their sports off the ground - they didn't put all that effort in for the sake of male people, who are already well catered for. The lion's share of sponsorship and endorsements goes to men already, why should women have to share their tiny proportion with yet more males?

Were Lance Armstrong and Justin Gatlin unfairly sanctioned by their sports governing bodies? The doping didn't make them look too different to their competitors, so I suppose that was all ok?

I understand and to some extent agree with your arguments but I'd think most people would agree that CAIS males are a less clear cut case than their androgen sensitive brethren, and less clear cut still than 'trans women'. Not being female isn't in my view quite enough to make you male, or certainly not to make you a man, I am definitely at least somewhat sympathetic towards these cases.

Dougalskeeper · 26/07/2023 08:40

Sex is binary, so if you're not female then you ARE male, however atypical

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 08:40

Spain score nine minutes in, thank god.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 08:44

2 - 0 Spain. Bye bye cheater. 😘

imed · 26/07/2023 08:53

FIFA are an absolute disgrace.
They must fall into line with other sports.
BBC gushing every time Banda gets the ball.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 08:54

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 08:26

ITV actually talking about it pre-game. Almost sounded like they were getting it... then ended with lavish praise for Banda. They did mention that FIFA are reviewing the current guidelines.

BBC* not ITV.

DreamItDoIt · 26/07/2023 08:57

Whilst it's great they are out we should not be celebrating this. Statistically a team from Zambia isn't going to do that well.

The problem hasn't gone away. BB is a man taking a woman's space in sport and the Zambian team are cheating. This should have been an opportunity to bring this to the fore but it seems to be an opportunity wasted. How many of these situations do we need before it is addressed or are we going to pretend that, because they didn't win, it doesn't matter?

imed · 26/07/2023 08:58

And how sickening to see BB modelling the Zambian kit.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 09:00

@DreamItDoIt I agree with you but at the same time I don't want additional woman to lose out. If Zambia progress to the next stage Banda and his cheating pals get $60,0000 each. Shutting them down as fast as possible stops more women from losing out.

FYI
Women's World Cup payment structure

  • Per player (in US dollars)
  • Group stage $30,000.
  • Round of 16 $60,000.
  • Quarter-final $90,000.
  • 4th place $165,000.
  • 3rd place $180,000.
  • 2nd place $195,000.
  • Winners $270,000.
MattDamon · 26/07/2023 09:00

*$60,000 each

Chersfrozenface · 26/07/2023 09:02

If FIFA doesn't change its policy it won't be long before biologically male people will be playing in "women's" teams from countries that have every chance of winning.

Such as USA, Canada, Australia.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 09:10

Banda's maleness comes out very clearly when is outpacing women down the pitch. It's a huge difference.

DreamItDoIt · 26/07/2023 09:10

@MattDamon sorry I can see your point but don't agree. Other women supporting this because they then benefit is not the way to go. Women need to stand up en masse to this.

I would like to see the 2 teams in the final issue a statement about it at the end. I think it would be good if each team did their own cheek swab and published results and sent them to FIFA with some sort of strap line eg womenstanding4womensportXX

borntobequiet · 26/07/2023 09:17

such athletes would never be able to compete on an even footing with men, right!

Many (if not most) people, both men and women, are not competitive in sport, however much they would like to be, because of physical characteristics, such as being small, slight, poorly coordinated or easily tired. They accept this and do something else instead. So should these athletes.

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 09:19

@DreamItDoIt But we live in a world where women receive horrific abuse for standing up for their rights. Female players are already fighting just to have basic pay, training facilities, and coaches that don't blackmail them for sexual favours.

The Spanish team tried to band together to improve their situation and the men in charge slapped them down so hard only three of them have been allowed back on the team. No way in hell am I putting that on them. The responsibility lies with FIFA, coaches, and the media.

KiteofUncertainty · 26/07/2023 09:20

puffyisgood · 26/07/2023 08:31

I understand and to some extent agree with your arguments but I'd think most people would agree that CAIS males are a less clear cut case than their androgen sensitive brethren, and less clear cut still than 'trans women'. Not being female isn't in my view quite enough to make you male, or certainly not to make you a man, I am definitely at least somewhat sympathetic towards these cases.

There are no degrees of maleness or femaleness.
They are male.
They have male athletic advantage.
Women deserve fairness in sport.

imed · 26/07/2023 09:27

The BBC seem to be on a mission to promote these 'women' with DSDs
Semenya, Mboma, Banda.
We can see you.

WickedSerious · 26/07/2023 09:50

Dougalskeeper · 26/07/2023 08:40

Sex is binary, so if you're not female then you ARE male, however atypical

Quite,you're one or the other.

It's not a spectrum

MattDamon · 26/07/2023 09:51

American commentator calling Banda a 'unit' when he aggressively shoves a female player off the pitch. 🙄

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