Concerned teacher - 8yo 'trans' child

[EtherealAurora]

NC for this.

A family recently moved to my school. There is a 9yo girl and her 'brother', an 8yo 'boy' who is actually a girl. Staff are to call the 'boy' David (obvs not real name) and use pronouns he/him etc. Children in the class are NOT to be told this is a girl.

Currently, children use mixed sex toilets. However, from September, the class will be split to change for PE into girls and boys.

I am not comfortable with a girl changing in a room full of boys. I think if I suggest they change in another space (eg toilets) this would cause questions to be asked by other children in the class, potentially 'outing' the child. What would be a sensible suggestion for me to make to SLT in this instance?

There is no such thing as a trans child.
If you agree to go along with this fallacy what kind of example are you setting to the other children in your school.

I don't believe in Heaven any more than the fantasies of gender ideology. Threaten away, my dear.

I think my stance on protecting children makes it likely that I would if it even existed!

Frothing. Right, OK then.

Or, just possibly, pointing out the potential risks where every kid thinks that David is a boy until it is obvious that David isn't. If you don't like the frothing how about this consideration?

David is going to go swimming so will have to change afterwards. Making David change with either the girls or the boys will be outing. If David changes on their own, 29 other kids will be asking why David didn't change with the boys. D'you not see a problem here?

You could, of course, prevent David from swimming but that wouldn't be fair and would prompt questions from the other kids.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

In fairness no one is going to see heaven as it’s a made up place.

Meanwhile, in the real world primary school kids actually go on swimming lessons and managing a mixed sex changing room is a headache I certainly wouldn’t thank anyone for, and isn’t a good experience to put young children through.

See this is the trouble with this sort of thinking- fantastical thinking doesn’t sort out real world problems.

A parent is allowing their child to explore what their gender identity means to them

Exploring gender roles and identity is a great thing. Lying to your child about their biological sex (and expecting everyone else to collude in that) is not, for all the reasons outlined in the article linked above - you are encouraging the child to live a lie, and sooner or later that lie will collude with reality, whether that's in a swimming lesson, in their first romantic relationship, or when their health is destroyed by the side-effects of drug treatment or experimental surgery.

One of my dd's was very gender non-conforming. When she was about 5 she wanted a short haircut, and got frustrated by the fact that hairdressers can't seem to do anything more dramatic than a very short bob when they know a child is a girl. So at some point I got my scissors out and did a very short pixie cut, and she was absolutely thrilled. She mainly dressed in her older brother's cast-offs, so she did genuinely pass as a boy, and she really enjoyed playing with that - she loved people addressing her as 'lad', and enjoyed being able to go to the barbers and get a proper short back and sides. But what she liked about it was the ability to put on a new role, try out a new way of being in the world, and also being able to get one over the grownups in an 'I know something you don't know' kind of way. It was always grounded in the reality of her sex, but it enabled her to see that her sex didn't limit her to the gender roles that she saw around her.

At some point she decided to grow her hair out, even though she mainly carried on dressing in jeans and hoodies, and actually still does now -when she does put on a dress or heels for a particular occasion, it has the same sense of changing roles as wearing 'boys' clothes' did when she was small.

I do think that experimentation and boundary-breaking at a young age helped her to see that she didn't have to be limited by what other girls wore or did - and in fact she's gone on to do a very maths-based degree, which is another type of gender non-conforming.

None of those great outcomes (and she is a fabulous individual now, though I say so etc etc) would have been improved by lying to her that she could actually change sex.

collide with reality

@Riapia erm yes that is my exact point. I do not want to go along with this. Hence asking for advice on here. I am very much GC. And have followed this board for a long time. It is suddenly not so simple when it's in my own workplace. I want to be fully prepared so I can actually help this child.

😂

Thank you. I’m going to forward this on. Very useful.

There you go
Flashing fever from your eyes
Hey baby
Come over here
And shut them tight
I'm not denyin'
We're flying above it all
Hold my hand, don't let me fall
You've such amazing grace
I've never felt this way
Oh, show me Heaven, cover me
Leave me breathless
Oh, show me Heaven, babe
Here I go
I'm shakin' just like the breeze
Hey baby
I need your hand to steady me
I'm not denyin'
I'm frightened as much as you
Though I'm barely touching you
I've shivers down my spine
And it feels divine
Oh, show me Heaven, cover me
Leave me breathless
Oh, show me Heaven, babe
If you know what it's like
To dream a dream
Baby hold me tight and let this be
Oh, oh, Heaven, Cover me
Leave me breathless
Oh, show me Heaven, babe
Leave me breathless
Leave me breathless
Cover me, oh yeah

I would commit murder to prevent my child being hurt but this path is guaranteeing that David will be very badly hurt. I'm not denying that David really believes that they are a boy but this is such a bad way forward.

Good call, Apocalipstick. I would add:

"Show me, show me, show me how you do that trick
The one that makes me scream", she said
"The one that makes me laugh", she said
And threw her arms around my neck
Show me how you do it
And I promise you, I promise that
I'll run away with you
I'll run away with you

If I’ve learned anything from Belinda Carlisle it’s that oooh heaven is a place on earth.

But I’m proper derailing now so I am sorry.

Children do know. I have an 8 year old girl in an extra curricular class. Until recently children were told to refer to her as a boy. Very often I overheard them say "she, I mean he". And now apparently she's non-binary, she told me "I'm not a boy or a girl". Two nine year olds in the group tried to ask her "do you have a penis or a vagina?". She wouldn't answer and I moved the conversation on. Kids know people are either one or the other and the rest is nonsense.

It may well be the case. But u here is scorning the child. What concerns us is the lying to all the other children, the collusion in something that is likely to harm all the children, including the child in question.

My first point of contact would be the child's parents and ask them what do they prefer for David to use regarding toilet.

Then pe kit on PE days and so on .

My first concern would be settling David in school /class and I can say that they have a very good teacher who cares so much. xxx

Do slt know?

Yes, in theory however I think a lot of secondaries are hoping having at least one single sex toilet (up 3 flights of stairs in the furthest corner of the school, for hundreds of girls) will be a get out of jail free card.

I'm dubious about whether that will actually work on a court of law. However in the secondary schools where girls have been harmed in mixed sex toilets my understanding is that they have mixed sex (honestly labelled) and single sex (insufficient for the demand token hope of a get out of jail free card). So the school might be throwing girls and boys who want/need single sex toilets under the bus but at least were honest about it.

In this case the school would be lying to parents i.e. not telling them the toilets are now mixed sex so I believe this deception puts them on even shakier legal ground.

*in

Why do the wishes of David's parents override thevwishes of all the other parents? What if my son is in David's class, and I don't want him to have to get changed in front of David? What about the other children in the class and what they want? Why do the wishes of David snd David's parents take precedence?

@justgotosleepffs I see your point but that totally depends on the specific needs of other children. The school should take into consideration both equality and also equity basically giving each child the resources they need to thrive and learn.
The wishes of David's parents matter as they know their child the best and I am suspecting they have changed school due to some incident or probably a bad experience.

Personally I hate that primary children are expected to change in front of each other in class or in the toilets as they do need their privacy. Dds class had no provisions for kids both girls and boys to change around that age and dd hated changing in front of others . Luckily after covid the school kept that kids can come in Pe kits on the specific pe days which made life quite easier for all I guess.

TBH I don't think 'David' is being served well by this situation, at all.

Perhaps the worst aspect is the 'secret' nature of it. This is setting a child up for a very difficult time, especially as puberty approaches.

My first point of contact would be the child's parents and ask them what do they prefer for David to use regarding toilet.

And then if David's parents decide they want David to use the boys' toilet, they have to contact the parents of all the other boys at the school and ask if they mind a girl using the boys' toilets with their sons. If one single parent objects, they shouldn't do it.

But even if all the other parents agree to David using the boys' toilets, I'm not sure that would be legal, given the regulations which require single sex toilets for children over the age of 8. The school should get some legal advice if they want to go down this route.

I think you’re in a really difficult position OP. So far, my list of questions for the SLT, and possibly the parents is;

1. What is a teacher expected to say when children ask about David’s sex/other children refer to David as a girl
2. how can the teachers ensure their responses are consistent, and it’s something everyone is comfortable saying (and that there is a safe route to express any discomfort)
3. what is the route for all children to be able to ask questions/express discomfort safely.
4. how will the school ensure that all parents have all the information they need to be able to provide consent. Parents also need to be able to deal with children’s comments at home - if their ds comes home saying David’s body looks like a girl…..
5. How is this going to be managed as David, and other children begin puberty

These questions need to be considered in relation to time in the classroom; playground; toilets; changing for PE; changing for swimming; residentials…

Are there eg Muslim or Jewish children at the school for whom this raises other challenges?

Managing this properly takes a great deal of thought and care. And that’s without getting into any consideration of whether any of this is in David’s best interests, and how best to prepare them for high school

Good luck!