Concerned teacher - 8yo 'trans' child

[EtherealAurora]

NC for this.

A family recently moved to my school. There is a 9yo girl and her 'brother', an 8yo 'boy' who is actually a girl. Staff are to call the 'boy' David (obvs not real name) and use pronouns he/him etc. Children in the class are NOT to be told this is a girl.

Currently, children use mixed sex toilets. However, from September, the class will be split to change for PE into girls and boys.

I am not comfortable with a girl changing in a room full of boys. I think if I suggest they change in another space (eg toilets) this would cause questions to be asked by other children in the class, potentially 'outing' the child. What would be a sensible suggestion for me to make to SLT in this instance?

The conflict with other protected characteristics is an important point.

I would do the bare minimum to 'comply' and make sure the child has a way to easily change their minds back to biological reality. That will be the likely outcome longterm if not 'indulged' too much. Presumably you can still address the child directly as 'You'?
Take George in the Famous Five books by Enid Blyton, always called a boy's name but we all knew she was a girl; as did she.

So if it's just the name and clothes, getting them to use a disabled loo might allow an easier way back to normality for this poor child.

I can't think of any other situation where parents telling the children to lie consistently to everyone they interact with and forcing teachers to collude in that lie would be seen as anything other than abuse of the children and a safeguarding red flag.

The other parents and children can't consent to the mixed sex facilities as they don't know they are mixed sex- their consent is being violated. OP one way to do this is to say, what are we going to do if.... a parent asks if the toilets / changing rooms are single sex? A parent directly asks if X is female? Many parents are becoming quite aware of this issue and asking schools, to ensure there is proper safeguarding and the school complies with the law. The law says single sex toilets over 8. Are they going to ask you to lie? Surely that's totally contrary to the behaviour normally expected? You are in a position of trust - are you going to break that trust with the other 200(?) children and families in the school just because of one family?

I feel so sorry for the sibling. On another thread someone said that this is a gift to predators who if they find out about it as it gives them leverage over the child which they would absolutely use.

And what the hell's wrong with acknowledging sex? The child can wear stereotypically 'boys' clothes, be called David and still be a girl. It used to be called a tomboy. I bet she's not the only girl who likes stereotypically 'boy' things in the class.

This situation must be insanely stressful for the child - at every turn there will be situations where their 'secret' could be exposed. Overnight residentials, games outside (what if the other kids say 'let's go for an outdoor wee!'), swimming, PE, the sibling telling someone or another child just realising. Children aren't stupid. What a huge mental toll it must take on both children.

Lying is discriminating against other families on the basis of sex and also possibly religion. So the school is breaking the law. It's just wrong on every single level.

Thankyou all. I will look up all the links mentioned.

As stated upthread, this is going to become a problem very soon. Up to now, the child is young enough that other children haven’t questioned it. I haven’t heard any mention amongst parents either - they just wouldn’t question it because they are being told this is a boy. Very good points raised about PE - swimming will be on the curriculum for this child later this academic year.

There was no discussion amongst staff when this child came to our school. We were simply told ‘this is David who is actually a girl but the children will not be told about it’. It will be very difficult for me to lie if I am directly asked by a child but I would be putting my head above the parapet for sure. I am not completely safe at the moment in my job so I need to be careful.

As regards toilets, the vast majority of the schools I have worked in have mixed sex toilets. There is sometimes a ‘girls toilet’ and ‘boys toilet’ but these are not fully enclosed (for safety reasons). At my current school, the staff toilets are also mixed sex although fully enclosed cubicles (which is a whole other battle).

I don’t know anything about the background of the family or why this transition has happened. I am not the child’s teacher and this info is seen very much as ‘need to know basis’.

It's single sex toilets in schools from the age of 8. So from year 3 onwards.

@Cycleorrun I was not aware of this! Thankyou. That is a good place for me to start with the questioning.

Certainly y3&4 currently have one bathroom with 3 cubicles which are used by all children.

I think y5 and 6 have one room for each yr group which have designated cubicles for girls and boys. They are not fully enclosed though, definitely gaps at top and bottom and no sinks inside.

@EtherealAurora
That's awful. Not like that where we are. The law is adhered to.

What you all have to ask, is that if there was an incident - would you have done enough to prevent it and what mitigations are in place to protect that child, the other children and the staff?

If they did a risk assessment and haven't told anyone about any protections in place then if something happens they are liable.

So, so, so dangerous and abusive to this little girl. I would not collude in this. As a parent I'd tell my child that David is a girl because at some point my child might be able to build a relationship with her and hopefully others would too which might give David the opportunity to say no to their parents. As a teacher I'd have to refer to the child as David and I'd use 'they' not 'he'. I'd report the incident to Social Work dept, make safeguarding records, contact anyone I could to alert authorities that abuse may be present, Munchausens, cultural sex preference or worse.

It sounds like the parents are the main drivers on this, and I think at the moment it would be difficult as a school to challenge them on the medical side. Which to some extent is how it should be, that problem is huge but it's not the school's place.

What is the schools job is to maintain a safe environment for the student, and other students, and clearly that is going to be an issue soon. I think the school needs to think through the implications, and then talk to the parents with a firm sense of what is and is not possible. (ie, a girl changing with the boys is not possible.)

Why was the school head and teachers told David is a girl?

I think the very suggestion of this should be reported as a safeguarding and if the school leaders are colluding then an organisational safeguarding. There is good evidence that this prevents the child from coming to terms with themselves in ways which prevent future significant physical (let alone emotional) harm. Further more, as a PP said, the other parents have not consented to mixed sex changing and it should not be assumed that they have. This child is, and always will be a girl. Her parents are being abusive if they fail to acknowledge that .

I know two children who were transitioned young (4 and 6). The 4yo started school as the opposite sex, paperwork and all (although learning support were told). I think there's about 8 in our primary school now.

It is a million times easier for the one whose class all know they are "trans" than the one forced to keep it secret. It's unbelievably cruel to force a child to keep a secret about themselves this way. The older one also knows people don't care, they feel accepted, whereas the younger is scared everyone will hate them if they knew. It's a shit show of terrible parenting.

However, if you "out" them you will be the bad guy, the child is primed to think this is a nasty thing and means you hate them.

From a solution POV, Our school has a gender neutral toilet and changing rooms for anyone who thinks they'd be more comfortable. This includes a lot of kids with things like dyspraxia or just a bit plump and self conscious. You can get pop up changing tents even, if there's no rooms.

My sons primary they all had to come
into schools already in their PE kits on PE days. I know its unreasonable to get the whole school to change to do this, but would it be possible for David to do that? Again I know its not ideal and will provoke more questions. I think the parents will have to be asked what they would like David to do. If he is wearing boxers would any of the boys even realise? Maybe he could have his PE shorts under trousers?

If school let this child change with the boys, there is a whole heap of pottrouble.

Spot on about the collusion. And like you, I would be honest with my children.

Start again...stupid fat fingers!

If the school lets the child change with the boys there is a whole heap of potential trouble.

Parents of other kids may be cross and vocal about it when they find out. This may include in the playground. People get cross when they are deceived. This is a big deception. David needs protection from this.

David might be at risk of being accused of stuff.

School could be in trouble for discrimination against belief/disability of other children.

Other kids may be at risk of being accused of things because they were in a mixed sex environment.

The school may be in trouble for not providing single sex loos as required by law.

It's uncertain which way things are moving legally. School don't want to risk going too far and getting in hot water . They need to be cautious.

Single sex changing or coming to school in PE kit on PE days. This would be a benefit to all. More actual lesson time on PE.

If you are a teacher in the school, you are being asked to lie to students, and that's just an impossible situation. One of your class may well come up to you and say, hey Miss, is David really a girl?

SMT want you to say no. But the only correct answer is "David was born a girl. Now David identifies as a boy." Any other answer is massively confusing, as children will know that David is biologically just as female as any other girl in the school. And that's before the follow-up questions start! "So... David's a girl, right?"

SMT have not thought this through. They have not considered the implications of colluding in a lie that will definitely be found out. Of telling children that they cannot put a name to the reality they see in front of them.

Yes, teach compassion and respect for belief. David should be safe and happy at school. But don't lie about material reality to children you are in charge of teaching.

Yes I agree about coming to school in Pe kit and we used to do this. However, we made the move this year back the other way as too many children (and parents) were flouting the uniform rules. It is also a requirement for EYFS curriculum I believe?

I will raise the issues with the head in the first instance. She is new in post and may be taking the path of least resistance currently. I certainly will be following up on the single sex toilet provision.

I agree with you all that this is damaging to the child and others who are being unknowingly involved in affirming this change.

@GritGoes4th yes I agree. I have taught the older sister since they arrived and have avoided speaking about her 'brother'. Instead using 'David' when talking about them. But it's only a matter of time before a member or staff slips up, or the sister tells a friend or a child realises something doesn't add up.

What a mess we are all in

How am I expected to trust that my child doesn't lie to me if I then go on to be deceitful to them?

It's not even a white lie either.

If you have a son, they will be able stripping down in front of someone they assume is also male. Learning how their body grows, larking about as children do.

Imagine the humiliation that comes with realising that all the adults knew but didn't tell the children that they were stripping down in front of a girl?

No ta.
"I'll be asking my child how they feel comfy with regards to changing next to a girl. If they have no issues then I will support this. If just one has a problem in the whole classroom, I will advocate for them"

And you know it's going to be totally unexpected and at the most awkward time. Like, in front of your whole class during a maths lesson. Or everyone tumbling in from play.

Or imagine if it's a child in another class that asks first, and that teacher follows SMT instructions and lies. Then you're asked. Now it's even worse! You tell the truth and you're saying the other teacher is lying. Or wrong.

What a mess indeed. Sorry!

Male staff will be supervising this child when changing. Why is it ok for them but not for the other girls? How do the male staff feel about this?

What will happen when swimming lessons start? David will be changing with the boys and a male member of staff. Not so easy to come to school in swimming gear as PE kit and impossible to return to school in it once they’ve been in the pool.

What happens on residentials?

Your school needs to have solutions for this- these aren’t even worst case scenarios that need thinking about just in case, these are realities.

School needs to be realistic and parents need to understand what they are asking for is unrealistic.

Meant to post this earlier. This is a clinical psychologist's analysis of the psychological damage done to primary children when adults around them pretend they're the opposite sex. Vital reading for all parents and educators:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Can I ask if this is an independent school OP? The toilet situation sounds as though it wouldn’t comply to standards expected of a local authority maintained primary school. Toilets should be separated by sex from age 8. Records of children are also split by sex which is vital for observing outcomes and making appropriate provision. You can’t just make it up as you go.

Children in my school were starting overnight residentials from yr 4. Obviously sex segregation for sleeping. Lying to 29 other kids and their parents about sleeping arrangements would be a red line for me. No way I’d be signing up to that.

Could you approach the governing body as they are primarily there to ensure safeguarding and legal compliance. Supporting social transition at this age with no medical evidence or risk assessment should be something governors take a long hard look at.