Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

[FriendofJoanne]

I'm in a new job so probation period. Professional role, one where you'd really expect critical thinking. Quite a high proportion of the teens so far seem to identify as trans or non-binary.

I think I need to keep my head down, I will bring up the Cass review with the rest of my team once the time is right and maybe gently question how much they know; if they're aware of the lack of evidence for gender affirming care, the safeguarding concerns at Mermaids etc.

We work with really vulnerable young people, this (gender identity) I have really researched thoroughly and I do not want to be complicit in any harm. When I'm with the teens I treat them as individuals, that's no problem, in their presence I will respect their requested pronouns, and of course in written records. I have done it before in the past, but I didn't know as much then as I do now.

What I'm really struggling with is my colleagues using female pronouns for clearly male teenagers, when we are alone in the office (so far I'm only aware of boys identifying as girls and a girl identifying as non-binary) . I can't do it. I can't call a male 'she' because to me it represents being complicit in something I see as harmful.

Anyone else in this position? How do you cope?

@FriendofJoanne

Now you've misunderstood me. I do know how terrible the life chances of these children are. Their life chances are that poor because their families (the folks who should care most about their well-being) and so many other people in society make them feel shit about themselves! Being trans does not, in and of itself, have any affect on one's life chances. It is the response of society to trans people that creates a negative affect on their life chances.

I believe you're referring to people with DSDs when you use the term intersex. There's a powerful thread where a Mumsnetter describes in detail why she finds the word offensive. Maybe have a read and then come back and share your googled lists of references?
(btw, women on here prefer peer reviewed data rather than a quick search engine search. There's a lot of knowledge and expertise on here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4837643-pcos-and-devastated-to-be-called-intersex

@Pineappledancer

So sorry! Forgot to list this source for the descriptions and incidence of intersexed infants. https://isna.org/faq/frequency/ (No, PCOS is not one of the listed types.)

But I'm obviously wasting my time though. Your recommended thread contained zero "peer-reviewed" sources. (Unless by peer-reviewed, you mean reviewed by other mumsnetters?) But no, peer-reviewed is supposed to refer to academic/scientific literature that has been peer-reviewed by other academics/scientists who are recognized experts in their fields. If you bothered to look at my "googled" links (which you didn't or you'd know that I don't use the Big G), you would have found plenty of actual peer-reviewed papers to choose from. And now I'll stop wasting my time.

Not through work but I know if two trans kids who we cross paths with a fair bit. I use their name and never use pronouns around them or to their parents. I do use the correct sex pronouns when talking with my kids if these kids come up but in your situation that's not relevant. I'd just use the name all the time or say 'they'. Don't comply with the pronouns I've noticed one other in this group never using the pronouns and just using name and I'm sure they noticed me, its kinda obvious you are gender critical because it sounds ridiculous to use a persons name so much, we haven't discussed it but it's like a sort of reassurance being gender critical is ok and we are not alone in this madness. You may find once you start doing it others do too.

Here is a thought for you, other gender critical feminists, and anyone else who is absolutely convinced that there is a genetically determinative connection between sex (a biological fact) and gender (a social construction). At least one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside). If sex is biologically determinative of gender, then shouldn't those children be non-binary?

This is so strangely muddled that I had to read the whole post twice to see if it was a joke or parody, Quz.

Firstly, GC people do NOT think there’s a genetically determinative connection between sex and gender, if you mean what I think you mean. Sex is a biological fact, and gender is a social construct. That’s what GC people think. We have no problem with a man being feminine, doing the dishes, liking sewing, etc. Doing those doesn’t affect his sex though.

I have someone close to me with a DSD (NOT ‘intersex’). They are not ‘other’. They have a sex just like you. Theirs was just a little harder to determine. The true figure for babies with DSDs that mean their sex isn’t obvious at birth is lower than that you quote. And no, they’re not ‘non-binary’ 🙄 Non-binary is a social gender identity, nothing to do with sex and nothing to do with DSDs.

@Quz

Thanks for your reply, I will read the links you have posted as I am interested to find out more. I absolutely believe some babies are born with this type of condition, sorry if I am not sure of the current correct terminology regarding intersex / dsd.

I guess I was just questioning the statistic, which seemed incredibly high, coupled with the description you gave which read to me as 1 in 1000 children having a mixture of both male and female genitalia. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Your colleagues probably have all sorts of opinions on all sorts of things that you don't agree with. Can you frame this as just another thing that you see differently?

The difference between @FriendofJoanne ‘s colleagues’ opinions on football or religion or the best car to buy, and their views about Gender extremist ideology @NewNameNigel is that “opinions” about vulnerable young people can lead to significant harm to those young people. No “reframing” changes that.

There’s emerging evidence that social transition is not a neutral act, and can do eventual harm.

one of every 1000 babies is born intersexed: meaning, that baby has some version of both male and female genitalia (outside and/or inside)

Nope. Differences in sex development are not this fantastical version of hermaphroditism.

People with DSDs know their sex. They have very clear cause to know their sex, as often it is at the centre of their health and they are working closely with medical consultants.

You need to do some reading and research.

It’s 0.018%. It’s often over-estimated or you read crap about it being as common as red hair, but the true number of babies whose sex isn’t obvious at birth is around 0.0018%:

estimated prevalence is approximately 0.018% (i.e. 1 in 5555 person) worldwide DSDs

Link didn’t work. Try again:

DSDs

Thats one of many resources. 0.018% is a tiny amount of people.

Christ. you are in the wrong job

Refer to everyone as 'they'

Call them by their requested pronouns. This is not your circus, not your monkeys.

I had this in my last job. A young man who worked for us came out as trans and everyone instantly started with she / her. The thing is, I spoke to most of my colleagues about this and none of them, even his equally young peers, thought he was a woman. All of them thought he was a deeply troubled young man ( we all knew of multiple issues and vulnerabilities in his life which would make him particularly vulnerable to believing being trans would solve the difficulties he faced) and that transitioning would increase, not decrease, his problems. Yet all of them called him she/her when he was not there, even after he stopped working for us. It really bugged me that they did this despite saying they knew he was a man, wasn’t trans and trying to be trans would cause him serious harm.
I dealt with it by referring to him as he/him in conversations with them and most of them followed suit when I did.

I'm in a similar role. I can do it by thinking of the individual rather than the larger concept/questions/concerns I have. The vast majority are females using he/him pronouns though. And lots of they's.

I object to everyone being 'they' which some staff use seemingly for ease, my preference is not they, it is she/her so in same vein I can can call someone by their preference whatever that might be.

I also work with vulnerable teenagers and I do think they are often exploring and questioning identity - so if I respect their choice and preference of pronouns in a safe place, then they can also think about and question this with me and their peers and that's got to be a good thing.

(I strongly advocate for female only spaces in my role mind)

Also if I sometimes use he or she or they and not all the same for the same person, I get mixed up - I work with a lot of teens!

It's almost impossible to have a conversation which flows talking about someone else without using he/she/they.

@Quz I think everyone here is positive about females and males not conforming to the stereotypes society has constructed for their sex. It’s kind of feminism 101 as the Americans say - but the idea that nonconformity means you may actually BE the opposite sex is actually antithetical to it because it denies gender non-conformity.

Counterintuitive pronouns come in the context of a movement (as represented by Stonewall UK and many other pressure groups) that demand access, based on gender expression, to spaces, services and sports that have been segregated on the basis not of gender but of biological sex. This obviously affects women and girls. Not all men see the inequality - or they take the blanket approach to safeguarding personally.

The construction of gender goes hand in hand with biological determinism - the idea that biology determines our roles (e.g. women give birth ergo should look after kids, men are stronger ergo should be the breadwinner etc) has been used historically (and still is) to oppress women and girls. The belief that sex is determinative of social gender expression is false and entirely regressive and oppressive. DSDs (‘intersex’ as you put it) are entirely irrelevant.

While there is a debate to be had about 'womanface', most people were happy enough to use feminine pronouns for drag queens - gay men who assumed the persona of a stereotypically feminine woman - but they have different implications when the pronoun is for real and a pass to female safe spaces for males, or to life-altering surgery for girls who understandably want to flee what society has constructed for them as women.

Also - ‘being trans’ is a radically different experience for females and males.

I have this video on my "watch later" list, it may have some useful tips. This is How We Fight and Defeat the Woke - New Discourses

"When I'm with the teens I treat them as individuals, that's no problem, in their presence I will respect their requested pronouns, and of course in written records. I have done it before in the past, but I didn't know as much then as I do now.

What I'm really struggling with is my colleagues using female pronouns for clearly male teenagers, when we are alone in the office."

So you are happy to use their pronouns when talking to them but it's an issue when they are not present?
It's hypocrisy and lack of respect in my book.

@BreatheAndFocus

The article that you cited took their information from https://www.leonardsax.com/how-common-is-intersex-a-response-to-anne-fausto-sterling/.
The basis of Sax' argument is in what Fausto-Sterling counted as intersex. It is commonly understood among researchers that different people/organizations count differently. The fact is, though, that what you count as intersex will likely be dependent on your objective. You'll find a discussion of that here: https://isna.org/faq/frequency/.
Given the number of people in the world, I don't consider 1 of every 5,555 "a tiny amount of people." You wouldn't think of it that way, either, if you, or a child that you loved, were that 1 person.

On pronouns, Malay works perfectly well with “dia” which means he/him/she/her. No articles or tenses either. Cool language.

@Pineappledancer

As you'll see if you read some of those materials, the statistic I cited could be seen as conservative. (It depends on how you count them.) Sadly, there are extremely few people who have much knowledge of intersex issues. As for terminology, I like intersex because it references a fact, without judgement. Referencing something as a disorder (as in Disorders of Sexual Development) implies a determination/judgement that something is wrong. If I were intersex, I would not want to be thought of that way.
https://isna.org/ was an organization that advocated for transgender people. Their work has been continued here: https://interactadvocates.org/. I would recommend that you start with those, unless you really like reading academic articles. 😉

@BreatheAndFocus ; @BaronMunchausen

I am including both of you as you covered some similar points.

Perhaps I misunderstood the meaning of "gender critical feminist" because of the context of it's first use in this post. I took it to mean a feminist who is "critical of" the existence of gender dysphoria. Maybe you mean a feminist that is critical of the conflation of sex and gender? I would think that would be every feminist?

So, we are all three in agreement that sex and gender are different, and that sex is not determinant of a person's characteristics or preferences. Let me start by pointing out a thing that many people do, that both of you did in your responses, that I also sometimes do, because the fact of the matter is that our culture teaches us, from the time we are wee ones, in many ways, that sex and gender do go "hand in hand." So it isn't a criticism, just an observation and one that I hope will help you when talking about these issues in the future.

@BaronMunchausen, you stated that, "...the idea that nonconformity means you may actually BE the opposite sex is actually antithetical to it because it denies gender non-conformity." Shouldn't "sex" be gender? Trans people don't say, "I'm a male/female," they say, "I'm a man/woman."
@BreatheAndFocus, you stated, "We have no problem with a man being feminine, doing the dishes, liking sewing, etc. Doing those doesn’t affect his sex though." Again, these activities are about (socially) gendered activities, and have nothing to do with sex. (It also doesn't affect his gender, if he identifies as a man. It just means he is a man that is willing to step outside of traditional gender roles and YAY!)
As I already stated, I have also caught myself making that error, so not a criticism. The point is that we only do that because the conflation of sex and gender is so deeply entrenched in our culture. This is relevant because...

Some trans people do decide to also change the appearance of their sex. (Because sex is biological, they can't actually change their sex.) They do this because they want people to treat them/respond to them/have expectations of them, based on the gender that is conflated with that sex, rather than the gender that is conflated with the sex of the body they were born with. To my way of thinking, being critical of anyone being trans goes against feminism, because it is essentially saying that they should not be who they feel like they are. Isn't that exactly what "men" have done to "women" that we are against? @BaronMunchausen, forgive me if I misunderstood that point, and/or help me understand that better. @BreatheAndFocus, also feel free to weigh in on that.

Also, intersex/DSD issues are not irrelevant to this discussion. There is a great deal of research and people that have experienced some of what is now called "gender affirming care," in an effort to force a body that was born intersex (because, yes, that does happen) to become a body that will be identifiable as either "male" or "female."

Struth @Quz , I wish I had your ability to spout intellectual bollocks.

Quz also told us there are traditional genders!

the gender that traditionally matches their sex.

I wonder what the traditional genders are?